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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 91 of 383 (688477)
01-22-2013 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jaywill
01-18-2013 9:09 AM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14 - Blessing, etc.
Sorry, jaywill - I forgot about this one (post 75). I hope to get to it, but let me pose an unrelated question to you (apologies to Phat again - still in Eph 1).
Why does 1:13 of all the verses in this section mention 'you' and not 'we' or 'us'?
Someone had mentioned that chapter one has only three sentences and chapter two begins with 'And', connecting it to the apostle's prayer at the end of chapter one. Chapter two begins with 'Any you...'
Any ideas?
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 01-18-2013 9:09 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 92 of 383 (688495)
01-22-2013 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by purpledawn
01-22-2013 7:22 AM


Re: Authenticity?
quote:
The authentic letters are written to specific groups and dealing with specific issues that concern that group.
The building and the future of the church universal is as much a "specific issue" as in any other letter.
Christian disciples open to the apostle, maturing, reaping the benefits of his ministry would grow to have the conscerns that their spiritual leaders had. It is no anomaly that an eager audience could be draw out of Paul his deepest enthusiasm for his calling. He would share with them all that is within him to share.
I'm sorry. But I find your first rational here completely unrealistic.
Why would the ultimate future of the church NOT be a "specific issue" to the Christians under the apostle's ministry ?
You think that there was no one in the early churches who became enthusiactic about the big picture of God's overall purpose ? You think Paul had no listeners who wanted to share with him in cooperating with God for God's eternal purpose ?
quote:
Paul presents his arguments to back up his instruction.
A eager and enthisiastic church well could be ministered to with little polemic argument. Not every church had to contain skeptical elements questioning Paul's apostleship, doubting his motives, forcing the defending of his teaching.
It is not an anomaly that some churches at some times required less polemics and forced self vindication. At times the Apostle surely had wide open door before him to share what was on his heart in a high way.
There is no reason to think that in every church Paul had to wipe snotty noses and change diapers. Some audiences contained a sizable enough component of more mature believers who could take in Paul's big picture.
I believe that the 13 or so epistles of Paul display variety of levels of reception, trust, and maturity.
quote:
Ephesians doesn't seem to provide the in-depth arguments that Paul does.
It is no anomaly that here and there the apostles had a more mature audience who required less polemics.
Spiritual experience ebbs and flows. Some congregations have high times after a revival. They alternately may experience low ebbs when a lot of problems distract them.
Why is it hard for you to consider an audience going through a season of revival, enthusiasm, dedication, deeper consecration who are able to forget about their own petty concerns long enough to receive some higher teaching? "What does God want?" can sometimes occupy the believers rather than constant self centered attention of Christ only fixing this or that personal problem or even congregational problem.
Jesus said "Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you." The audience of the Ephesian epistle may have gotten their minds off of a lot of minor things to draw forth from Paul his "high peak" and transcendent bird's eye view of it all.
Besides in the Ephesian epistles there are also some down to earth exhortations and instructions.
quote:
I would say the arguments for what is being said in Ephesians can be found within Paul's letters.
The arguments are also found in other NT writings. The language may be different.
Paul's Body of Christ can be compared to John's record of Jesus speaking about the True Vine and the abiding branches (John 15)
Paul's habitation of God in spirit can compare with John's record of Jesus teaching about "My Father's house" in chapters 1,2, and 14 of John
Paul's builded temple of God can be compared to the builded church and the keys opening the door to the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew 16.
Paul was faithfully teaching and carrying out what he received from his Lord the resurrected Christ. And Christ was working through the apostles what He had taught in His ministry before and after His cross.
quote:
To see the authentic letters as summaries of Paul's teachings, one would need to know what Paul's teachings were outside of the letters. We don't have that information that I know of.
It is not necessary that we have all the apostle Paul's words.
I don't believe that it was in God's will to preserve all of Paul's words.
I believe what we have is inspired, canonical, and adaquate to know what foundation Paul laid for the Christian church.
John said Jesus did and spoke things which could fill enough books that the world could not contain them. In spite of this what we have tells us the major things we have to know about what Jesus Christ taught and did.
The 13 or so epistles of Paul are adaquate along with Luke's history in the book of Acts to know the major work and teaching of the Apostle Paul and his co-workers.
The work of discerning which letters were authentically apostolic and Pauline, I think, was done centries ago by Christians who cared, were not naive, and sorted through a plethora of religious writings to recognize authority and inspiration.
These ancient Christian brothers were hundreds of centries closer to the events than your latter skeptics. I think you're trying to re-fight a battle which was already fought and decided by scholars almost two millennia closer to the events.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by purpledawn, posted 01-22-2013 7:22 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 01-23-2013 6:32 PM jaywill has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 93 of 383 (688496)
01-22-2013 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jaywill
01-18-2013 9:09 AM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14
I think what I mentioned in post 77 has bearing on your post 75 too.
1. Sonship for us
2. Heading up all things in the fullness of the times for Christ
3. Christ, Head over all things to the church now
4. For us to holy and without blemish before Him
5. To the praise of the glory of His grace and to the praise of His glory
In Genesis it seems like when God saw man in His image He blessed. He creates man in His image and then blesses that man to carry out His purpose to express Him and represent Him.
In Ephesians He has not given up His original purpose. His blessing carries out His purpose to the extent of making men who need redemption to become His sons. He gives man participate in His plan (Weymouth translation), 'for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it - the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one head in Christ'. Man being holy and without blemish in His sight. And all of this to the praise of His glory.
And if we really want to bless Him we will want to bear His image now in reality.
What Phat has been mentioning several times regarding Eph 5 and 6, 'Be imitators of God as dearly loved children...' is right in line with this. The last 3 chapters of Ephesians are some details on how to bear that image in a practical way.

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 94 of 383 (688499)
01-23-2013 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
01-22-2013 11:51 AM


Re: Author ,author!
And given that question, I myself would ask God directly...through prayer. People should choose what to listen to as instruction for daily living--be it their own logic, reason, reality, and/or belief.
If you are just going to go ask god to tell you what you should do, why do you need to refer to Ephesians at all? Why do you need to refer to the bible at all?
What responsibility for the oppression of women is born by a god who will give you the right rules when you use his secret telepathy technique rather than reading the words on the pages of his supposed holy word?
If Ephesians has no authority, WTF is this thread for?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 95 of 383 (688556)
01-23-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Jazzns
01-21-2013 5:29 PM


Re: Authenticity?
If the bible is what it claims to be (or what Christians claim it to be rather), than really why don't we have near perfect attestation and distribution? Why did it take 700 years for the Far East and double that for the entire western hemisphere of the world to receive the first glimpse of the holy word of god?
I don't even know which logical fallacy this might be. The argument from superior distribution?
From this, I imagine you don't like the gospel of John either, for example, where Jesus says (John 4:21-23):
Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him.
The Christ did not come immediately upon the fall of man (although He was promised), but many years after (Gal 4:4-5):
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law, That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship.
So the 'delay' included the thousand plus years when God dealt mainly with Israel and the patriarchs.
I still prefer to marvel at what has been preserved and for how many years - you know - the cup being half full versus half empty.
For example (I quote from F. F. Bruce again):
Of the 142 books of the Roman History of Livy (59 BC - AD 17) only thirty-five survive; these are known to us from not more that 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books iii-iv, is as old as the fourth century. Of the fourteen books of Histories of Tacitus (c. AD 100) only four and a half survive; of the sixteen books of his Annals, ten survive in full and two in part.
I included the three verses from John because they also bear on your question to Phat in post 94. God uses (at least) two means to manifest Himself to man - by man's spirit and by His word. These should be in agreement. John 6:63 shows both are intimately related:
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
So we both read and pray.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Jazzns, posted 01-21-2013 5:29 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 96 of 383 (688565)
01-23-2013 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Richh
01-22-2013 7:31 PM


Re: Ephesians 1:3-14 - Blessing, etc.
quote:
Sorry, jaywill - I forgot about this one (post 75). I hope to get to it, but let me pose an unrelated question to you (apologies to Phat again - still in Eph 1).
Why does 1:13 of all the verses in this section mention 'you' and not 'we' or 'us'?
Someone had mentioned that chapter one has only three sentences and chapter two begins with 'And', connecting it to the apostle's prayer at the end of chapter one. Chapter two begins with 'An[d] you...'
Any ideas?
No problem on the delays.
Verse 1:13 mentions "you" and not "we" like many other verses?
"In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..."
I don't know why only "you" appears in verse 13. My guess would be that this phase of his encouragement is related to the Gentiles. For it is the Gentiles, the "you" in that sense, who are being joined to the commonwealth started by God with Israel.
Ie. "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God." (2:19)
But it might be interesting to go through the whole epistle and count up the "you's" and the "we's, us's" .
I am still puzzling over purpledawn's complaint that there is a lack of "specific issues" in this epistle.
Well, anyway, Paul is praying for the recipients of his letter that they "go higher" in a sense. He certainly wants them to see more in the spiritual realm. You know the OT said "Without a vision the people run wild." .
Paul prayed that they would see the issues of the real hope of their calling -
" ... in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him,
the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe .... etc. etc. etc."
(verses 16 - 19 and on)
He wants them not to take Christ for granted. More they need to realize. This is a specific issue - the need for deeper and more extensive realization of the worth of Christ.
The whole idea of someone other than Paul having to fabricate this kind of summary on Paul's behalf seems curious a suscpicion to me. Why not Paul did so for himself ?
Purpledawn says in essence - "But it would be more like Paul if he were arguing and debating on behalf of his ideas."
How about he also be PRAYING for the saints that they understand his revelation and grasp his messages ?
" I also ... do not cease giving thanks for you making mention of you in my prayers ..."
Okay. In Galatians he argues more.
In Ephesians he says he bows his knees and prays without ceasing for them.
Same man purpledawn. The same man with the same concern.
So in the Corinthians letters he defends, he argues, he is like a lawyer before the court. In Ephesians, it is not another Paul. It is the same man praying hard this time more than reasoning by way of polemic argument.
In some other letters he argues that they would see.
In Ephesians he PRAYS that they would see.
I know we are still discussing chapter 1. But in chapter 3 he apparently knew he had reputation among the Ephesians of speaking high and glorious revelation -
"If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have written previously in brief.
Bt which in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men ... etc. etc. etc. " (vs.3-6)
This is interesting too. Paul says he wrote "in brief". We might consider that to mean a letter of his did not contain a lot of argument. He took for granted that his audience was with him. So he once before wrote "in brief".
He prayed much and he wrote "in brief." I think we have a genuine letter here from the apostle Paul.
Does not the book of Acts tell us that the Ephesians burned all their magic books in enthusiasm for the Gospel? All those other teachings added up to a lot of money Acts 19:17-20) .
I think these Ephesian Christians went through a season of being very opened to Paul's ministry. They touched this rich Christ and wanted more. And Paul could pour out everything within him because of this.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 97 of 383 (688569)
01-23-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
01-21-2013 8:13 AM


Re: Authenticity AND Reliabililty
quote:
Whether the letter is pseudographic or not does not change the contents of the letter.
It is evident that in some cases it was important to Paul that the readers knew for certain it was his own hand writing -
"See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand." (Galatians 6:11)
I don't think this reflects an apathetic attitude about the Galatian churches knowing that it is himself, Paul, who is writing this epistle.
In the Thessalonian letters Paul warns that it makes a difference that they know they are receiving teaching from him or from someone else pretending to be him -
"That you be not quickly shaken in mind nor alarmed, neither by a spirit nor by word nor by a letter as if by us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." ( 2 Thess. 2:2)
Whose writing you are actually reading, is important to Paul. The churches surely should not be lax about it. They would be discerning and careful.
In the First Thessalonian Paul spends considerable space reminding the young believers how he and his co-workers behaved among them. It is not just his teaching which he wants them to consider. He wants them to remember his behavior, his service, how he and his co-workers conducted themselves and the loving care the Thessalonian Christians received.
This is not academia. The life testimony of Paul in their midst is as vital for them to remember as his teaching.
I am a little suspicious of too much attitude "Oh it doesn't matter if Paul really wrote this or whether an imposter, a fraud, a pretender, a good intentioned LIAR was imitating Paul."
This thought of "Oh they didn't care" or at least "Oh, it is still useful thought a fraud is instructing the churches in Paul's name."
If someone came to your house and used your PC in this forum and under your tag of purpledawn, expressed something, I think you would want to clarify the record to the Forum. "That was written by someone else in my name."
I think the early brethren (our brethren as fellow believers to some of us here) cared to separate the authentic from the non-authentic.
Now to the seasoned Greek language scholar who has valid questions about style of writing - Paul worked with co-workers and helpers and "team members".
Ie. "I, Tertius, who write this epistle, greet you in the Lord." (Romans 16:22)
At the very end of this letter of basic Pauline teaching we have this little indication that Tertius was writing down from Paul's dictation.
I think the letter was read back to Paul. It is not impossible that some grammatical adjustments may have been made and run past him. He okayed the final product.
I was tutored by a Greek teacher who wrote a text on Greek in order, so he said, to learn the language better. I would not presume to argue with him for a moment. And he, an expert, had doubts about at least one letter having been attributed to Paul. This was based on grammer and style.
I would not presume to correct this expert. But my personal belief is that some letters were written in a team coordination -
====================================
"Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the saints ... who are in ... Philippi." (Phil. 1:1)
"Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus ... and Sosthenes the brother to the church of God which is in Corinth." (1 Cor. 1:1)
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus ... and Timothy the brother, to the church of God which is in Corinth ..." (2 Cor. 1:1)
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy the brother to the saints in Colosse" (Col. 1:1)
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians ..." (1 Thess. 1:1)
Brotherly teamwork and coordination was being practiced here.
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians ..." (2 Thess. 1:1)
==================================
This kind of coordination I can accept the early saints often expected. Forgeries and pseudonames during or after the departure of the early apostles, I think, if the churches were on the look out, would be handled with keen caution. I don't think "Oh it doesn't matter who really is writing us" I was that loosely applied.
Second Ephesians ( Christ's letter to the church in Ephesus in Revelation) shows the disciples on the lookout for being misled by phony apostleship -
" ... and you have tried those who call themelves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2b)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 01-21-2013 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 01-23-2013 6:28 PM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 98 of 383 (688579)
01-23-2013 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Richh
01-23-2013 2:17 PM


Re: Authenticity?
Of the 142 books of the Roman History of Livy (59 BC - AD 17) only thirty-five survive; these are known to us from not more that 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books iii-iv, is as old as the fourth century. Of the fourteen books of Histories of Tacitus (c. AD 100) only four and a half survive; of the sixteen books of his Annals, ten survive in full and two in part.
And how many times in these books do they claim that there exists a supernatural redeemer who will give you eternal bliss if you believe in him and eternal torture if you do not?
How many times in these books do they instruct, on the threat of eternal punishment, for women to accept a degraded status, to scorn the rest of society due to percieved ills, or do whatever rituals are required to appease the wrath of the creator?
Perhaps a book that DOES include these things SHOULD then rise to a higher standard of attestation don't you think?
Are you implying that because these other unrelated books were poorly preserved (ignoring the fact that other Christian writings DID get destroyed only some of which we even know about) that we should regard the Bible as reliable?
Shouldn't we expect more from the creator of the world and his one true religion than a mild improvement over similar ancient documents of the time that don't even make equivalent claims?
So we both read and pray.
So then there is no objective truth to the words on the page? That certainly does not inspire confidence. I have the feeling that some of your other co-religionists may have something to say about that.
And if I am right, that this is all in your head, then when you read Ephesians verses about the status of women and you are going to get the cultural relativistic answer you want, the mysoginist is going to get the answer he wants, etc ad absurdum.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

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 Message 95 by Richh, posted 01-23-2013 2:17 PM Richh has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 383 (688585)
01-23-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jaywill
01-23-2013 4:26 PM


Re: Authenticity AND Reliabililty
quote:
It is evident that in some cases it was important to Paul that the readers knew for certain it was his own hand writing -
"See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand." (Galatians 6:11)
Galatians is considered authentic. First Thessalonian is considered authentic. Romans is considered authentic.
From what I've read, they don't feel this type of evidence is in Ephesians. That extra personal touch that is Paul.
Goodspeed stated in his introduction to Ephesians that the letter provides no definite historical situation that the letter is supposed to address. He feels that Paul clearly divulges under what conditions he wrote his letters and the purpose on his mind.
Another issue he has is that he feels the author presents the apostles and prophets as the foundations of the church (Ephesians 2:20), whereas Paul thought of Christ as the foundation of the church. (1 Corinthians 3:11)
Goodspeed also feels the author reveals himself to be a Greek, which Paul is not.
5. The church has become Greek; for the whole body of Christians addressed in 1:1 were once physically heathen, 2:2, 11. There is no room for any Jewish Christianity in the picture.
6. The writer himself had been in the same condition, 2:3, and hence is a gentile Christian. Paul scrupulously distinguished between the sins of the lews and the grosser ones of the heathen, Romans, chapters 1, 2. It is these grosser ones which the writer now confesses for himself and his readers. Both he and they are Greek; compare II Cor. 11:22; Gal. 2:15; Phil. 3:4.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2013 4:26 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 100 of 383 (688588)
01-23-2013 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jaywill
01-22-2013 10:28 PM


Universal Church
quote:
The building and the future of the church universal is as much a "specific issue" as in any other letter.
Christian disciples open to the apostle, maturing, reaping the benefits of his ministry would grow to have the conscerns that their spiritual leaders had. It is no anomaly that an eager audience could be draw out of Paul his deepest enthusiasm for his calling. He would share with them all that is within him to share.
I'm sorry. But I find your first rational here completely unrealistic.
Why would the ultimate future of the church NOT be a "specific issue" to the Christians under the apostle's ministry ?
You think that there was no one in the early churches who became enthusiactic about the big picture of God's overall purpose ? You think Paul had no listeners who wanted to share with him in cooperating with God for God's eternal purpose ?
I can't really respond until you clarify how you are using the phrase Universal Church as I asked in Message 88.
Edited by purpledawn, : can to can't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 101 of 383 (688620)
01-23-2013 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Jazzns
01-21-2013 11:46 AM


Re: Authenticity and Content - Content in this post
Ephesians writes:
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Something that has needlessly caused a lot of suffering in our world in the 1900 years that people thought that this shit was real.
IF some people want to have a higher view and think of it as commentary, they can reject this part as the backward and primitive statement that it is. But the problem is that many people think this is a commandment from God and have excused the discrimination of half the worlds population on its basis amongst other forgeries (Timothy) and bastardizations of Paul's message (edits to Corinthians).
Please don't take this as a personal attack, but I believe much suffering has been cause over the years by people taking a verse here and a verse there out of context as it suits them.
II Peter 1:20 says,
knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
One application of that is that all scripture must be taken in the light of the whole. The section in Ephesians 5 has these sections:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord...
25 Husbands, love your wives...
6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord...
6:4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children...
6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear...
6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way...
If the section is taken as a whole, it is very balanced. I don't think, or at least I'd hope, that you would not deprecate the section as a whole. There are requirements for all parties. If all these injunctions are kept, there will be a sweet harmony among all parties with the rights of all respected and the needs of all met.
By the way, this is in perfect harmony with what Paul wrote in Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Edited by Richh, : More material

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Jazzns, posted 01-24-2013 12:41 AM Richh has replied
 Message 104 by jaywill, posted 01-24-2013 6:23 PM Richh has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 102 of 383 (688634)
01-24-2013 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Richh
01-23-2013 10:49 PM


Re: Authenticity and Content - Content in this post
Please don't take this as a personal attack, but I believe much suffering has been cause over the years by people taking a verse here and a verse there out of context as it suits them.
I really am amazed by this. You say this and then the very next thing you do is pull a half of a verse of scripture out of context.
2 Peter 1 writes:
So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Peter, excuse me "Peter", is saying that you should read the plain dang words! Also, it is unclear to me that Peter is talking about scripture in general rather than prophecy specifically.
But that is just one problem with what you are saying. You follow up by claiming that, in context, Ephesians 5:22 isn't so bad. In reality, the context CONFIRMS the destructive nature of the advice. The instructions to the husband makes it crystal clear that the ordering is the husband over the wife.
I didn't go into the slave thing because I thought that the misogyny would be sufficient for my point. But to just drive the nail deeper, this is NOT inspired advice:
Ephesians writes:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free.
Paul is telling slaves to obey their master as they would obey Christ himself!
If the section is taken as a whole, it is very balanced. I don't think, or at least I'd hope, that you would not deprecate the section as a whole. There are requirements for all parties. If all these injunctions are kept, there will be a sweet harmony among all parties with the rights of all respected and the needs of all met.
This section is the very definition of unbalanced. The husband/wife relationship is proscribed to be unbalanced. The master/slave "relationship" is even worse.
You are telling me that you can actually read these verses out loud and say with a straight face that "the rights of all respected and the needs of all met"?
The main point I am leading toward in this thread though, is that Paul in the genuine epistles (minus a few additions to those) is not interested in preserving earthly institutions and traditions. Paul is greatly concerned in his early letters about the conduct of all people in the church and their readiness for the return of Jesus. He is battling with Peter about the law and telling people NOT to get married if they can help it. Over time he is consoling them about their worries that Christ is delayed and providing encouragement.
As you get into the disputed epistles, such as Ephesians, and then into the garbage that is the Pastoral epistles, you are looking at a very different Paul. This Paul is more concerned with durable institutions and the day to day mundane issues of life as a Christian. This Paul also just seems to have it in for women and really goes out of his way to make sure that their inferiority is established.
So in the end, I think the authenticity of Ephesians speaks quite vividly to the issue of how we should value it. Ephesians is sub-standard as a moral guide and the fact that its authorship is questionable gives us all the more reason to reject it, not just on the basis of its failings.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Richh, posted 01-23-2013 10:49 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2013 8:00 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 107 by Richh, posted 01-25-2013 12:03 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 109 by purpledawn, posted 01-26-2013 9:01 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 381 by Richh, posted 12-27-2013 11:04 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 103 of 383 (688713)
01-24-2013 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
01-23-2013 6:32 PM


Re: Universal Church
I can't really respond until you clarify how you are using the phrase Universal Church as I asked in Message 88.
I feel the article I was quoting is referring to the early visible beginnings of the Catholic Church. How are you using the phrase? I think a debate over the Universal Church Theory would be off track this thread. You can ask Phat.
The church universal, as I used in means the total body of believers in all localities through out all ages since the church's beginning in Jerusalem.
It would include living believers as well as departed believers.
The universality is indicated in Ephesians chapter 2 where Paul uses the phrase "you ALSO are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:22 my emphasis)
The audience in Ephesus is being built ALSO into that one temple building of God. I don't think Paul means the Ephesian Christians are part of a habitation of God which includes just Ephesus and Colosse, or just Ephesus and Corinth, or just Ephesus in Laodicea, or just Ephesus and Rome.
I believe Paul means the Ephesian Christians are being built into that habitation of God in spirit which includes all who have the Spirit of Christ in a universal way.
This building is universal and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone (v.20).
This universal body is also the wife that He came to die for in a universal way -
"For a husband is head of the wife as also Christ is Head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the Body ... Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,
That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing ... we are members of His Body ... this mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (See 5:22-32)
He is speaking of the aggregate of all believers throughout all the earth and throughout all the ages.
It is the aggregate of all the sons of God which God planned to present before Himself in love -
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love." (1:4)
Sorry to spring a unfimaliar phrase on you. But this we may refer to as the universal church since it universally includes all who are the sons of God. He is working on them to present them all holy and without blemish which is the same as presenting the Bride and Wife to Himself not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing in chapter 5.
The Ephesians are included in something much larger than just themselves. They ALSO are being built into this "universal" habitation of God in spirit.
He is speaking of the New Jerusalem at the conclusion of the ages as seen in Revelation 21 and 22. She is universal and victorious and includes all who have become sons of God.
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:26)
So when Jesus refered to the church that He would build which the gates of Hades would not prevail against her (though they try), is the universal church.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 01-23-2013 6:32 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 01-25-2013 7:33 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 104 of 383 (688718)
01-24-2013 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Richh
01-23-2013 10:49 PM


Re: Authenticity and Content - Content in this post
Testing, 1, 2, 3.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Richh, posted 01-23-2013 10:49 PM Richh has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 383 (688757)
01-25-2013 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jaywill
01-24-2013 6:11 PM


Re: Universal Church
quote:
The church universal, as I used in means the total body of believers in all localities through out all ages since the church's beginning in Jerusalem.
It would include living believers as well as departed believers.
I don't believe that's what Paul or the author of Ephesians is really presenting.
Paul uses literary devices to help visualize his point as does the author of Ephesians.
Ephesians is more universal in that it isn't really addressing a problem in one local assembly. That's why some scholars feel it is a general letter applicable to all existing Messianic assemblies.
Ephesians seems to present a corporate view encompassing all Messianic assemblies and not just a local view. I feel that is how the scholars are viewing the universal idea.
Ephesians
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. (corporate) 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. (local)
The imagery of a building is a literary device to provide imagery to the point being made. Church: The Body, the Building and the Bride of the Beloved
quote:
So when Jesus refered to the church that He would build which the gates of Hades would not prevail against her (though they try), is the universal church.
I disagree that this verse supports the invisible universal church. From what I've read I feel his point was more about the inability of the governing powers to stop the spreading of the good news or to wipe out the assemblies built on his teachings. The book of Matthew is also a later writing about the same time frame (80-100CE) as Ephesians according to some scholars.
The author of Matthew already knows the Messianic community is still around although it is probably more Greek than Jewish by that time.
I feel that the author of Ephesians is still talking about physical assemblies, whether as a overall group made up of all existing assemblies under the heading of "Church" or the local assemblies. I don't feel he is using the term to encompass all believers past, present, and future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 01-24-2013 6:11 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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