Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 1456 of 5179 (688701)
01-24-2013 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1452 by RAZD
01-24-2013 5:11 PM


STATS please
Hi RAZD,
RAZD writes:
When the cure for a disease kills more people than the disease, should you take the cure?
If I understand that statement you are saying that guns kill more people than they protect.
If that is what you mean please present your stats to support such an assertion.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1452 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2013 5:11 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 1457 of 5179 (688702)
01-24-2013 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1454 by ICANT
01-24-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
I have owned a gun since I was six years old and have never been shot. That means in 68 years I haven't been shot. Have I ever needed my gun? Yes on 2 occasions. Did I have to use it no. Just the knowledge by the other person that I had it was sufficient.
And since those 2 were non-incidents, they will not get counted in the statistics that are being used to say that you having the gun increased your danger.
We simply do not know how many people are deterred from crime because the People are armed. We don't know how many lives have been saved. Its dubious to say that firearms make the odds worse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1454 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 5:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1460 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 5:41 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1458 of 5179 (688703)
01-24-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1453 by Taq
01-24-2013 5:17 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I guess things have gotten so bad nobody knows what basic Christianity is any more. MY belief? No, it's standard historical Biblical Christianity that used to be the basis of western civilization.
Why are people this short sighted. The vast majority of western civilization in christian Europe was dominated by dictators, not democracies. You are aware of this, are you not? In fact, Charlemagne, in the name of God, conquered the Goths and offered them two choices: convert to Christianity or die. Many opted for death. That is your beloved christian western civliziation.
This is a very complicated subject and not something to discuss on this thread. As briefly as possible, the full expression of Christianity in the west was not possible until the Protestant Reformation. Before that the Roman Church had control of the nations and their dictators and killed people in the name of Christ and so on. Early on however there was genuine Christian influence, before the Roman behemoth took control and ushered in the dark ages. But the real inspiration for the West began with the Protestant Reformation. But let's not discuss this here.
The restricting of gun rights is not something WE'd do that He'd react to with punishment, but would itself be God's judgment on the nation, which I would take as a sign that we're so far down the road to total judgment He's abandoned the nation altogether. I attribute the restriction to HIS will as judgment against us. It IS punishment, not something He'd punish us FOR.
Yes, let's look at our punishment. We have more freedoms than any previous generation of humans ever. The technology we possess is beyond anything dreamt of just 100 years ago. We are a very, very affluent nation. So affluent, it turns out, that just one of our states, California, would rank as the 5th most powerful economy if it were its own nation. Yeah, we are really feeling that wrath.
That can all be attributed to God's blessings on the nation for our former allegiance to His gospel and His laws. That is all being eroded. 9/11 was God's judgment that just about everybody ignored. When a nation comes under judgment the only thing you can do to save it is turn back to Him. This nation continued going down all the wrong roads. We are now at the very door of total economic collapse. I hope it won't happen but many think it's going to and it won't be pretty. Again, if we lose our gun rights I'll take that as a sign that total ruin is at hand.
But please let's not continue this topic here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1453 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 5:17 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1459 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 5:36 PM Faith has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1459 of 5179 (688704)
01-24-2013 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1458 by Faith
01-24-2013 5:27 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
This is a very complicated subject and not something to discuss on this thread. As briefly as possible, the full expression of Christianity in the west was not possible until the Protestant Reformation. Before that the Roman Church had control of the nations and their dictators and killed people in the name of Christ and so on. Early on however there was genuine Christian influence, before the Roman behemoth took control and ushered in the dark ages. But the real inspiration for the West began with the Protestant Reformation. But let's not discuss this here.
So just ignore all of that bad stuff that happened in christian based western civilizations, right?
9/11 was God's judgment that just about everybody ignored.
Those were humans flying those planes, in case you have forgotten.
When a nation comes under judgment the only thing you can do to save it is turn back to Him. This nation continued going down all the wrong roads. We are now at the very door of total economic collapse.
That already happened 80 years ago, and we seem to still be around. Have you once again forgotten your history?
Great Depression - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1458 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 5:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1461 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 5:44 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1462 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 5:45 PM Taq has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 1460 of 5179 (688705)
01-24-2013 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1457 by New Cat's Eye
01-24-2013 5:26 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
We simply do not know how many people are deterred from crime because the People are armed. We don't know how many lives have been saved. Its dubious to say that firearms make the odds worse.
But the anti gun group sure want to convince us that there are a lot more deaths by guns than there are people who are benefited from owning a gun.
I keep asking for stats but no one has any.
They won't even acknowledge the ones where the intended victim shot and wounded or even killed the attacker.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1457 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-24-2013 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1461 of 5179 (688706)
01-24-2013 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1459 by Taq
01-24-2013 5:36 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
So just ignore all of that bad stuff that happened in christian based western civilizations, right?
Why don't you start a thread and we will discuss what a christian is.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1459 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 5:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1463 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 5:50 PM ICANT has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1462 of 5179 (688707)
01-24-2013 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1459 by Taq
01-24-2013 5:36 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
So just ignore all of that bad stuff that happened in christian based western civilizations, right?
As the Protestant Reformers, who were all Catholics, most of them priests, discovered much to their chagrin, the Roman Church is not Christian at all but in fact Antichrist. The Reformation started with the recognition of the vile sins of the Roman Church and then overthrew their false doctrine as well. The average Catholic may be Christian and doesn't have much knowledge of the power elite of their Church so I'm not talking about them. But the design of the power elite has always been POWER, and there is nothing Christian about them but they sure do a great PR job.
Those were humans flying those planes, in case you have forgotten.
God is in charge of everything that happens. He could have stopped that from happening and He didn't. When He allows such destructive things they have to be regarded as His judgment against a nation.
We are now at the very door of total economic collapse.
That already happened 80 years ago, and we seem to still be around. Have you once again forgotten your history?
That was God's judgment too. So was the Civil War. Some say the coming collapse will far eclipse the Great Depression. I simply hope not, I just hope we're not that far gone. But I do know we've gone a LOT farther down the road of violations of His law since then.
I did ask that we not continue this discussion here. I won't answer you next time if you continue it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1459 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 5:36 PM Taq has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(4)
Message 1463 of 5179 (688709)
01-24-2013 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1461 by ICANT
01-24-2013 5:44 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Why don't you start a thread and we will discuss what a christian is.
Will that be before or after the thread discussing what a true Scotsman is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1461 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 5:44 PM ICANT has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 1464 of 5179 (688711)
01-24-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1444 by dronestar
01-24-2013 3:31 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
GDR writes:
This is not attack on your wonderful country which in many cases has done so much more than any other country ever to bring relief and aid to the rest of the world.
dronester writes:
Unless you are referring to 'relief from living,' and 'aid to the Grim Reaper,' it seems you are not acquainted with america's body of work.
I don't agree with the US position on such things as Viet Nam or Iraq but however, when there is a natural disaster or some other calamity the Yanks are the first ones there and in general ask for nothing in return.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1444 by dronestar, posted 01-24-2013 3:31 PM dronestar has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1465 of 5179 (688721)
01-24-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1446 by ICANT
01-24-2013 4:02 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Alright you have given me some examples that you are saying saved lives by people having guns in their home. We are still a long way from the 27 lives lost in just one incident in Connectcut. Lets’ look at your first example.
quote:
VERONA Earl Jones had just turned off his new TV shortly after 2 a.m. Monday when he heard a bang in the basement.
The 92-year-old Boone County farmer walked eight paces to get his loaded .22 caliber rifle from behind the bedroom door. He unwrapped a beige cloth and returned to the living room, sitting in a chair with clear view — and shot — of the basement door, waiting with the gun across his lap.
Some 15 minutes later, when he heard footsteps moving closer up the stairs, he raised the rifle to his eye. The intruder kicked open the door. Jones fixed his aim on the center of the man’s chest and fired a single shot. The Boone County Sheriff later announced the death of the intruder, Lloyd (Adam) Maxwell, 24, of Richmond, Ky.
These people aren’t worth any more to me than a groundhog, Jones told the Enquirer. They have our country in havoc. We got so many damned crooked people walking around today.
How about this man saying this gun is loaded leave or I’ll shoot. More than likely it wasn’t at all necessary to shoot the man. However, I agree that it was the gun that protected the man whether he shot him or not.
Nevertheless you are a Christian. What do you think of the heart and soul of man who has reached the age of 92 and takes great pride in killing a man and saying that that life was worth nothing more than a groundhog. I suggest that this is the mentality that is bred in the hearts and minds of the population that thinks that it is alright to shoot first and ask questions later.
Here is your second example
quote:
HENDERSON, N.C. A 14-year-old Henderson boy calmly described in a 911 call how he shot an intruder in a home invasion last week.
"I just shot the man. He came around the corner. I shot him. He broke the whole glass out (of the back door)," the teen told the 911 dispatcher.
Authorities said Anthony Henderson Jr. 19, broke into the home at 586 S. Lynnbank Road on Thursday while the teen and his 17-year-old sister were home.
The boy told the dispatcher that Henderson pointed a handgun at him, but Vance County Sheriff Peter White said deputies found no weapon on Henderson.
Henderson stumbled outside after being shot and was found dead on the lawn.
Once again the intruder is shot without question by this time a 14 year old without any attempt to get the intruder to leave. He just shot him as he walked around the corner. Shoot first and ask questions later
Example 3
quote:
LOGANVILLE, Ga. A woman hiding in her attic with children shot an intruder multiple times before fleeing to safety Friday.
The incident happened at a home on Henderson Ridge Lane in Loganville around 1 p.m. The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.
But the man eventually found the family.
"The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he's staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver," Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.
The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.
"She's standing over him, and she realizes she's fired all six rounds. And the guy's telling her to quit shooting," Chapman said.
The woman ran to a neighbor's home with her children. The intruder attempted to flee in his car but crashed into a wooded area and collapsed in a nearby driveway, Chapman said.
Deputies arrested 32-year-old Atlanta resident Paul Slater in connection with the crime. Chapman said they found him on the ground saying, "Help me. I'm close to dying." Slater was taken to Gwinnett Medical Center for treatment. Chapman said Slater was shot in the face and neck.
In this case we don’t really know if she gave the intruder a chance to leave and she may well have fired the gun with good reason and saved her family.
Ezample 4
quote:
Dallas police said a woman shot at two people who kicked in the door to her house late Wednesday morning, killing one.
The shooting occurred at about 11:30 a.m. in the 7200 block of Concordia Drive.
Dallas police said the woman was home alone when she heard a noise -- two men had kicked in the front door of her house.
She confronted the two men as they reached the second-floor landing and shot at them several times, police said.
The intruders ran out the front door, and one of the men collapsed from a gunshot wound, police said.
He was transported to Methodist Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The other man is still on the run.
Investigators said a gun recovered at the home indicates that at least one of the intruders was armed.
Charles Brown, the father of the 22-year-old woman who fired the shots, said he is proud of his daughter.
"Yeah, it is -- it's puffed out because I'm real proud of her because I taught her that," he said. "I taught my girls that -- to defend themselves when someone come to hurt them, and apparently she listened."
Brown said their home has been broken into once before.
"I'm feeling real disgusted about this neighborhood at this moment, that a man can't go to work and make an honest day's living without some thug breaking into his house," he said.
Because his daughter works at night and sleeps during the day, he left the gun by her pillow, just like he does every day, Brown said.
He said he will now teach his daughter how to forgive herself for taking a life.
"I really don't have a problem with what my baby done to them," he said. "I just hate that she hesitated and didn't get them both."
I think one thing that is interesting here. I’d suggest that burglars in Dallas would anticipate there being a gun in the house and as we see in this article one of the burglars was armed. I am sure that there have been cases in Canada where a thief with a gun has broken into a house but I don’t know of any. They don’t feel the need to be armed because they wouldn’t anticipate that the residents would be armed.
I also note that the father of the woman who shot the intruders just hated the fact that she hadn’t killed both of them in spite of the fact that it wouldn’t have made her any safer. This is the mentality that evolves from the type of gun mentality that you espouse.
Another point I’d make is that you are using examples where you believe lives were spared. Frankly I do have considerable empathy for the victims of the crimes in all these examples but frankly we have no idea whether or not their lives were saved. What would be more to the point would be to give examples of people who lost their lives because of intruders in their homes where they would have been saved if they had had a gun. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen as I know for a fact it does, but it still my contention that people are safer in their homes when there is no gun in the home.
GDR writes:
I will say this though. Our Prime Minister is a big hockey fan and we often see him sitting along with his kids in the stands at hockey games. Do you see your President being able to do that? I humbly suggest that readily available guns are one of the reasons for that.
ICANT writes:
That is great. But if you take the makeup of the citizens of Canada and the citizens of the US you will find that our homicide rate and that of Canada is not very different. Check Here
Alright, let’s check your link.
Political Calculations: U.S. vs Canada: Homicide Edition
It starts by saying that the murder rate in Canada is 1.94 per 100,000 and in the US it is 6.42. The rate in the US is 3.3 times higher than in Canada. This survey then goes on to say that this isn’t representative because:
quote:
That's important because of the pattern we found in the United States for who kills who. Here, we found that the vast majority of the offenders in homicides are of the same race as their victims. Because the United States has very large minority populations (blacks and Hispanics) which are largely absent in Canada, we must exclude the numbers of homicides of black and Hispanic victims from the U.S. totals to make a much more accurate apples-to-apples kind of comparison of U.S. homicides with Canadian homicides.
The chart below reveals what we found when we compared Canadian homicides with the portions of the U.S. population that most closely resembles the Canadian population:
Nice. They simply discount all murders or a black or Hispanic is the victim, even if the perpetrator was white black or turquoise. Is this your basis for saying that our murder rates aren’t very different? Just for the record Canada is very multi-cultural and we take the death of our minorities as seriously as we do our people of European heritage like myself.
I’m afraid that I have considerable difficulty reconciling your position with either reason, compassion or particularly the Christian faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1446 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 4:02 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1466 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:33 PM GDR has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1466 of 5179 (688723)
01-24-2013 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1465 by GDR
01-24-2013 7:09 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Alright you have given me some examples that you are saying saved lives by people having guns in their home. We are still a long way from the 27 lives lost in just one incident in Connectcut. Lets’ look at your first example.
Stop blaming this on guns. If the Principal or a teacher or two had had a gun this probably wouldn't have happened. The problem is the law that forbids guns on the school premises and announces that to all would-be murderers.
Nevertheless you are a Christian. What do you think of the heart and soul of man who has reached the age of 92 and takes great pride in killing a man and saying that that life was worth nothing more than a groundhog.
Why is "life" the criterion for everything here? Why is CRIMINAL "life" favored here? So many here are happy enough to kill INNOCENT life in the womb but get all hand-wringingly concerned about someone killed in the commission of a crime, so upside down is the moral sense in this nation these days. The intruder was a criminal threatening the home owner. I might prefer that the man had shot him in the leg or something rather than shooting to kill but you don't know in the first seconds whether the intruder was armed or not and such decisions may not be reasonably possible. LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT BE KILLED IN THE ACT AND CRIME COULD GO DOWN DRAMATICALLY. All this perverted "concern" about criminals just perpetuates the crime problem.
Then the case of the 14 year old shooting the 19 year old intruder. Again your sympathies are with the intruder. Why? I imagine the fear of the 14 year old myself in being confronted with an intruder, and the fear of the victims of all these situations. Why do you care so much about the perpetrator rather than the victim? It would be nice I suppose if the victim had his wits about him enough to make the refined decisions you'd like him to have made, but it's possible to THINK the intruder was armed and be wrong about it, and in that moment of fear shoot. The intruder broke the glass out of the door but you think maybe this wasn't a criminal home invasion just a case of shooting without thinking? WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE CRIMINAL? LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT GET SHOT AND YOU'D DRASTICALLY REDUCE THIS SORT OF CRIME.
And so on and so forth.
Your assessment of everything in terms of your nicey nice version of the "Christian faith" overlooks that God is a God of LAW. Jesus died to save us from our violations of the LAW. God takes His laws THAT SERIOUSLY that He had to send His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to suffer the just consequences ourselves. God did not soften His law, He offered us the death of His Son in our place instead. There is NOTHING in scripture that is soft on crime and sin, GDR, there is only the call that all us sinners repent and be saved. To favor criminals in a nation is NOT what God wants. Take the gospel to them so that they may give up their life of crime, THAT's what we're to do. But God has given us governors and police and laws against crime to protect us, AND the right to bear arms. There is nothing in the Bible either OT or NT that treats criminals as victims as so many these days seem to do and often based on perverted ideas of Christianity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1465 by GDR, posted 01-24-2013 7:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1470 by GDR, posted 01-24-2013 8:30 PM Faith has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 1467 of 5179 (688724)
01-24-2013 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1450 by Faith
01-24-2013 4:20 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Faith writes:
This discussion about how many lives are saved or lost is not the important thing to me. The important thing is retaining our second amendment right. Whatever can be done to improve safety without imperiling that right is fine with me.
I find that hard to fathom. You are saying that your second amendment rights, as you understand them, are more important than the lives of American citizens. Hmmmm... WWJD.
Faith writes:
NOT consulting commentaries when there is a dispute about the meaning of a Biblical text is stupid, as if you and you alone know the meaning that recognized teachers don't.
We can both find commentaries that will support our own positions on specific texts. I have shelves of books that I have read that give differing views on how to understand the Bible. I’m not relying on my own understanding. My understanding has been formed by years in the church and having read the views of a great many different Christian teachers, scholars and theologians.
My point was that as we disagreed on the understanding of the text then we should consider the context. When the statement is taken in context I frankly can see no basis for your understanding of the text and the context is frankly totally supportive of mine.
Faith writes:
I reject all your theology anyway, GDR, there's no point in discussing it. You're one of those here who makes it up to suit yourself. It's not worth it to me even to read through it. I listen to and read the best of the best preachers and teachers, there's no point in getting all caught up in a self-invented system like yours.
That is so typical. Whatever you do don’t read anything that doesn't agree with your views. As I said, I have spent considerable time in the last number of years reading various authors, from a wide range of views on the subject in question, and my views have evolved over the years as I continue to learn still.
I'm interested in knowing how you consider that I make things up while you have complete understanding of all that the Bible has to tell us. The hubris is breathtaking.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1450 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 4:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1468 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:43 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1471 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 8:36 PM GDR has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1468 of 5179 (688726)
01-24-2013 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1467 by GDR
01-24-2013 7:34 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
I've taken pains to learn the HISTORICAL BIBLICAL understanding and I submit to it, I've many times submitted my own personal opinion to the clear teaching of the defenders of the historical faith. You obviously pick only what suits your own opinion instead. The hubris is yours.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1467 by GDR, posted 01-24-2013 7:34 PM GDR has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1469 of 5179 (688728)
01-24-2013 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1447 by Faith
01-24-2013 4:07 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Faith writes:
And your blather about fear-laden this and that is again just your own fantasy and I'm tired of talking about it since you continue to get it all confused.
It isn't a fantasy, Faith. You've described over and over again how much we need our guns because of how dangerous a country we live in, attempting to scare people into rejecting increased gun restrictions because it will put them in greater danger.
But the fact of the matter is the more guns the more gun deaths.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1447 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 4:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1477 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 9:43 PM Percy has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 1470 of 5179 (688729)
01-24-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1466 by Faith
01-24-2013 7:33 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Faith writes:
Stop blaming this on guns. If the Principal or a teacher or two had had a gun this probably wouldn't have happened. The problem is the law that forbids guns on the school premises and announces that to all would-be murderers.
So the plan is that this kid, after killing his mother wouldn’t have gone to the school and started killing, because he would know that the Principal had a gun. Remember he went there preparing to die which is the case of all of the similar situations that I can recall. First off the principal would have to have the gun under lock and key and it would take time to get it and to get to where this kid is. Then we have a gun fight with all of these children around. It might have saved lives, it might have cost lives we’ll never know.
Faith writes:
Why is "life" the criterion for everything here? Why is CRIMINAL "life" favored here? So many here are happy enough to kill INNOCENT life in the womb but get all hand-wringingly concerned about someone killed in the commission of a crime, so upside down is the moral sense in this nation these days. The intruder was a criminal threatening the home owner. I might prefer that the man had shot him in the leg or something rather than shooting to kill but you don't know in the first seconds whether the intruder was armed or not and such decisions may not be reasonably possible. LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT BE KILLED IN THE ACT AND CRIME COULD GO DOWN DRAMATICALLY. All this perverted "concern" about criminals just perpetuates the crime problem.
Interesting that the concern for the lives of others even if they are a criminal is now a perversion. I wonder what that makes Christ? I guess Jesus should have said to the thief on the cross — too bad loser you’re life is worth nothing and you’re toast.
Interesting that you believe that the fear of guns would decrease the crime rate. I didn’t know what I would find but I googled the murder rate in states with the death penalty compared to states without it. In every year the murder rate was higher in states with the death penalty.
Link Maybe criminals aren’t as afraid of the possibility of death for thgeir crimes as you think they are.
Faith writes:
Then the case of the 14 year old shooting the 19 year old intruder. Again your sympathies are with the intruder. Why? I imagine the fear of the 14 year old myself in being confronted with an intruder, and the fear of the victims of all these situations. Why do you care so much about the perpetrator rather than the victim? It would be nice I suppose if the victim had his wits about him enough to make the refined decisions you'd like him to have made, but it's possible to THINK the intruder was armed and be wrong about it, and in that moment of fear shoot. The intruder broke the glass out of the door but you think maybe this wasn't a criminal home invasion just a case of shooting without thinking? WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE CRIMINAL? LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT GET SHOT AND YOU'D DRASTICALLY REDUCE THIS SORT OF CRIME.
I am not defending the criminal and I do have considerable sympathy with what the 14 year old did. All I was saying is that the boy shot the individual just as he came around the corner without any hesitation. Maybe it was the right thing to do and maybe not. I just find the whole thing troubling and I’m not suggesting that there are easy answers. In the end though we don’t know what the outcome would have been in the 14 year old hadn’t had a gun and frankly we don’t know what affect the fact that the killing of someone will have on the rather fragile psyche of a 14 year old.
Faith writes:
Your assessment of everything in terms of your nicey nice version of the "Christian faith" overlooks that God is a God of LAW. Jesus died to save us from our violations of the LAW. God takes His laws THAT SERIOUSLY that He had to send His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to suffer the just conse quences ourselves. There is NOTHING in scripture that is soft on crime and sin, GDR, there is only the call that all us sinners repent and be saved. To favor criminals in a nation is NOT what God wants. Take the gospel to them so that they may give up their life of crime, THAT's what we're to do. But God has given us governors and police and laws against crime to protect us, AND the right to bear arms. There is nothing in the Bible either OT or NT that treats criminals as victims as so many these days seem to do and often based on perverted ideas of Christianity.
Jesus says this in Matthew 7:
quote:
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Paul says this in Galatians 5:
quote:
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
The point of what Jesus taught was that it wasn’t about keeping laws. It is all about the heart. If everyone truly did love our neighbour as ourselves then we don’t have break-ins, murders or wars. Yes we live in a very imperfect world but as Christians we are given the task of reflecting the love of Christ back to the world. It is not about favouring criminals it is about knowing that all life comes from God and all life has value, yes, even the life of criminals. God has created a society where it is possible to bear arms. He has given us free will. This in no way means that it is His desire.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1466 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1472 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 8:41 PM GDR has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024