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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 151 of 383 (689902)
02-06-2013 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by jaywill
02-06-2013 10:01 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
But that does not support your argument. because it is a fact that the early church was much more inclusive of women than the Christianity we have today. Using his argument is nothing more than a dodge. The Christianity he is talking about does not exist today and has not existed for over 1800 years.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 10:01 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 10:30 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 166 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 4:51 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 152 of 383 (689903)
02-06-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Jazzns
02-04-2013 5:43 PM


Re: Paul versus Jesus
Jazznz,
I did not say you were a Holocaust denier.
Without reviewing all the posts I don't think I called you a Holocaust denier or a God hater.
I may have drawn some comparisons with some of the things you wrote and what one hears from corners like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.
For example you wrote:
My problem with God, if he is as is described in the Bible, is that he is a sadistic and evil dictator who has no business appealing to the cause of human suffering. But that is for a different thread!
Sounds like a snippet from Richard Dawkins to me. But I did not accuse you of being a God hater. I think having a problem as you admit, with an "evil and sadistic dictator" might imply no love lost between you and the Bible's alledged depiction of God.
I don't agree with the "evil and sadistic dictator" line at all.
Now my coming comments on Ephesisans 6 are going to be partially addressed to you, but not entirely. You may find that I am speaking to other readers in those comments as well.
If you get that sensation it will be because I feel not to beat this particular theme of Paul's instructions ad infinitum when there are other things in Ephesisans I am eager to comment on.
By the way, I do not "dismiss" the new atheists completely. I think some of the things they say probably should be said. We theists are not afraid of criticism. It sharpens us sometimes.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Jazzns, posted 02-04-2013 5:43 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 11:11 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 153 of 383 (689904)
02-06-2013 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 10:07 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
But that does not support your argument. because it is a fact that the early church was much more inclusive of women than the Christianity we have today. Using his argument is nothing more than a dodge. The Christianity he is talking about does not exist today and has not existed for over 1800 years.
When was the last time you sat among Christians in thier congregation "today" to observe how the sisters were treated ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 10:07 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 10:35 AM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 154 of 383 (689905)
02-06-2013 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jaywill
02-06-2013 10:30 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
When was the last time you sat among Christians in thier congregation "today" to observe how the sisters were treated ?
Are you freaking serious?
How many churches allow the ordination of women? The Catholic church, nuff said. Who is behind the current "war on women"?
Please show a christian church that does not hold women subordinate to men.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 10:30 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 11:47 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 155 of 383 (689910)
02-06-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by jaywill
02-06-2013 10:28 AM


Attacking the messenger
I did not say you were a Holocaust denier.
Without reviewing all the posts I don't think I called you a Holocaust denier or a God hater.
...
jaywill previously writes:
Your exhortation sound to me like "If the Holocaust did not happen, then you really should take it to heart." Of course I should. But I strongly persuaded that the Holocaust did happen and the conspiracy theorists and Holocaust Deniers are self deceived.
I asked a very innocent and probing question to try to move the discussion forward. I asked, wouldn't you rather know if a book you built your life around was fake if it really was fake. You didn't answer that question. Your strategy was to equate that with holocost denial. Right there in the above. How else should that be interpreted?
I understand that to mean that anyone who has a doubt about the accuracy of the Bible, and honestly goes seeking for evidence as I did, in your mind is the equivalent of the most irrational that someone could be. How can that be interpreted as anything other than offensive?
And further:
jaywill previously writes:
Any problem that you claim to have with your darling whipping boy Paul, can be easily noticed to be a problem actually with God and Christ.
...
So when I see this kind of bias I suspect one is going though the Bible like a grocery store. That is to pick and choose what fits their disposition. There's a saying that has much truth I think - "What kind of person you are determines what kind of Bible you have."
Your kind of New Testament has to accomodate for your need to say God is a sadistic dictator.
Right there you are directly saying that I have a "problem" with God, "what kind of person", and about my "need" to call God names. Rather than addressing my argument you are addressing me and trying to discredit me as a person and by my motives. You decided to take out one tangential thing I said in response to your inaccurate portrayal of my motives and use it as an excuse for your refusal to address my points about Paul and Ephesians.
Sauron is also an evil and sadistic dictator. Zeus is irresponsible philandering idiot. I don't reject their existence because of my need to call imaginary things by how they act in their imaginary stories.
I may have drawn some comparisons with some of the things you wrote and what one hears from corners like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.
I started my journey as a Christian seeking answers to things that seemed strange about the Bible. I didn't even know who Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins were until I was well into my own study for my own reasons. Prior to my deconversion I had never even read the title of a piece of Hitchen's work and to this very day I have not read one iota of Dawkins.
Rather than make assumptions about people, don't you think it is more civil and honest to ASK them about their motives? The best you could have hoped for, if you were right, was what exactly? Even if I HAD been a Dawkins devotee, you still would have been ignoring my argument to attack the messenger.
Does it not shame you that you had to resort to this tactic?
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 10:28 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 11:57 AM Jazzns has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 156 of 383 (689919)
02-06-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 10:35 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
Are you freaking serious?
How many churches allow the ordination of women? The Catholic church, nuff said. Who is behind the current "war on women"?
This is not an effective argument against my beliefs for a couple of reasons.
For well over 40 years I have not subscribed to the clerical system of ordained clergy. From my readings of the New Testament and the writings of certain Brethren enfluenced teachers, I came years ago to consider "ordination" of a clergy class of professional spiritual people to be against the New Testament of the "priesthood of the believer."
So complaining about how many "Reverend" Jane Doe's there are matters not to me because I think "Reverend" George Doe is manmade religious heirarchy opposed to the New Testament universal priesthood of believers.
Now the "War on Women" matter is moving into media hype and politics. It may be an invitation to debate about US social policy or abortion advacacy.
This not much different from someone saying "Whose behind Tree Huggers anyway ?"
Both are derogatory labels invented by political rivals of competing social policies.
Please show a christian church that does not hold women subordinate to men.
So when you see a woman in the pulpit with a funny collar then you will deem that woman are being treated fairly? Well, the idea that only a clerical position is indicative of spiritual authority is so repulsive to my understanding of the New Testament that I would have to write volumes why this is not true.
Sigh. I don't like that this discussion on Ephesians will morph into an endless debate on social activism.
Here is where the authority lies in the normal Christian church life -
"If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will and it will be done for you." (John 15:7)
It is not how many initials he or she has before the name or whether they are addressed as Reverend Ann or Reverend Mary ... ie "That's Reverend Joe's church. And that is Reverend Sally's church."
What moves the throne of God is disciples abiding in Christ and Christ's word abiding in them, so that their prayers and petitions echo the will of God and allow the divine throne to administrate.
It is not the official position of some manmade clergy / laity system that wields spiritual authroity. It is men and women abiding in the realm of the living Christ as channels for Him to move on the earth.
I speak here of what is normal. I may not be speaking of what is average. But some of us seek the normal Christian church experience.
Okay, granted. Paul told Timothy that he personally did not permit a woman to exercise authority over a man. But this exhortation could be taken, I think, as Paul speaking of his personal practice - "I ... do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man."
Now Paul also mentioned the couple Prisca and Aquilla with the WOMAN's name first. He may have considered her as the more consecrated of the two. Maybe her weath was a factor in the support of his ministry. Maybe he knew her as a great prayer warrior. I do not know.
I know that Paul mentioned the WIFE before her husband in that apostolic pair of Prisca and Acquilla.
I know that Paul regarded a certain woman Junia as of note among the apostles. In my opinion Paul must have discerned some noteworthy depth of service and authority which with this woman and her companion.
"Greet Prisca and Acquilla, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 15:3)
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Rom. 15:7)
Am I to believe that he never heard the sister speak ? Did none of the other apostles never hear Junia speak ? I doubt this.
Sisters can be indispensable prayer warriors. I knew brother who traveled about to minister to local churches. He would not go out unless he let a certain elderly sister know of his schedule in detail. His intention was that he desperately needed her intercessions in prayer in the spiritual warfare.
The problem with many is that they don't know of any kind of authority unless one has some official title or hierarchical position in the clergy / laity system.
Okay. I when I get to meet the Apostle Paul in the kingdom or in the New Jerusalem I will talk with him. I'll say -
"Brother Paul, even though you had a practice not to allow a sister to teach or exercise authority over a man, in church history we had some very helpful women. Paul, a certain women Mrs. Jesse Penn Lewis wrote a marvelous book on the parts of man - the heart, the spirit, the soul, the body. This enabled thousands of us to understand what the Bible meant by these terms. We also had a sister missionary Margerat Barber who instructed one of the 20th century's most useful servants of God helping millions in mainland China and in the West as well. We had a great book called "God's Plan of Redemption" written by a woman Mary McDonough which I would put in the hands of anyone searching for God with no hesitation.
Brother Paul, we did have some woman who were very much used by God to build the church."
Any man who desires to be taught by a Christian woman should go read that book.
http://www.livingstreambooks.com/...lan-of-Redemption/Detail
I don't know what Paul will reply. But he spoke well of Timothy's mother and grandmother as enfluencial on that young apostle. And he confessed that a certain mother of Rufus was his own spiritual mother -
"Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother as well as mine." (Romans 16:13)
I don't count it a supercial matter that Paul should speak of a woman as his spiritual mother. She had to have given him words to which he took heed.
Then there are the 9000 some hymns written by Fanny Crosby. I bet that some of those hymns have had more spiritual power in the lives of Christians than a lot of sermons delivered by men with Reverend before their names.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 10:35 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 11:54 AM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 157 of 383 (689920)
02-06-2013 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by jaywill
02-06-2013 11:47 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
More preaching I see.
All I see is that you again are using The No true Scotsmen fallacy. As expected.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 11:47 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 12:04 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 158 of 383 (689921)
02-06-2013 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Jazzns
02-06-2013 11:11 AM


Re: Attacking the messenger
Right there you are directly saying that I have a "problem" with God, "what kind of person", and about my "need" to call God names.
You said that you had a problem.
You said that you had a problem with a sadistic dictator depicted in the Bible.
Am I right?
My problem with God, if he is as is described in the Bible, is that he is a sadistic and evil dictator who has no business appealing to the cause of human suffering. But that is for a different thread!
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 11:11 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 5:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 159 of 383 (689922)
02-06-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 11:54 AM


Re: The NT and Women ?
More preaching I see.
Something wrong with preaching ?
Hey, you're not tied to the pew unable to retort, argue, preach your own message, contradict, debunk and otherwise debate this "preacher."
Maybe you just don't have anything worth telling anybody.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 11:54 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 12:06 PM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 160 of 383 (689924)
02-06-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by jaywill
02-06-2013 12:04 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
Something wrong with preaching ?
This is a discussion and debate site, not a preaching site.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 12:04 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 12:09 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 12:44 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 161 of 383 (689925)
02-06-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 12:06 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
Weren't you just waxing eloquent about people whining over "style" ?
You have a good memory. Its just short.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 12:06 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 162 of 383 (689927)
02-06-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 12:06 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
This is a discussion and debate site, not a preaching site.
Theodoric's preaching sermon below:
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
Just say "amen!" ya'll.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 12:06 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 1:07 PM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 163 of 383 (689928)
02-06-2013 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by jaywill
02-06-2013 12:44 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
So your not going to address this at all?
Message 151
Theo writes:
But that does not support your argument. because it is a fact that the early church was much more inclusive of women than the Christianity we have today. Using his argument is nothing more than a dodge. The Christianity he is talking about does not exist today and has not existed for over 1800 years.
Just personal attacks?
ABE
Hint. Stark is not talking about any modern incarnation of Christianity.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 12:44 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 4:26 PM Theodoric has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 164 of 383 (689941)
02-06-2013 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jazzns
01-31-2013 10:20 AM


Re: Jesus supports Paul
I am asked to show support of Jesus to Paul's exhortations in Ephesians 6.
Verse 1 - "The children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."
The Apostle did not simply say "children obey your parents" but "obey your parents in the Lord".
All the living in the Christian church is a matter of living and moving "in the Lord" Jesus because in resurrection Jesus has become a realm and a sphere into which people may enter.
In speaking of His resurrection Jesus said - "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20) The Son of God became a living realm into which men, women, and children may spiritually enter and live. Briefly, Paul exhorts the Christian children to be obedient to their parents in the realm of Christ and His grace - "obey your parents in the Lord".
Generally, all honoring, submission, and obedience of the disciples must be "in the Lord" and in the might of His strength - "Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength." (Eph. 6:10)
Being empowered in Christ and in the might of His strength for both Christian children and Christian parents corresponds to Jesus teaching the believers to abide in Him and He in them as the branches in the true vine. Apart from abiding in Him they can do nothing for the manifestation of the divine / human vine true enterprize -
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:6)
The abiding branches draw their life suppy from the rich true vine in which they are attached.
Obey the parents in the Lord also means obey them by being one with the Lord. It is not to be straining of self effort, but by the Lord and according to the Lord's word. They do not have to rely upon their own natural strength but turn to the Lord Jesus Himself for grace. This is all supported by John 15.
Paul strengthens his exhortation to the Christian children by refering back to Exodus 20:12 and the first commandment with a blessing - "Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth."
Honoring is an attitude of heart and may differ from obeying. Obedience is an action but honor is an attitude or certain spirit. As I wrote above in another post, obedience of God's people to authority may be measured. Submission and honoring is absolute. If the parent instructions the child to do something against God, the Christian child may honor the parent and show a respectful and submissive attitude yet not obey them to offend God.
The same applies to wives towards husbands in the Lord and slaves towards masters in the Lord.
The whole idea is proven as supported by Christ because Christ teaches that He is the God of the Old Testament become a man. He said that He was the I AM who appeared in burning bush to Moses and gave to Moses the ten commandments (John 8:58; Matt. 23:37))
"The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.
So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple."
They thought to execute Him immediately for blasphemy because He said that He was "I AM" as the God of Exodus 12. And it was this God who gave the commandment of honoring the father and mother. So Paul's exhortation to Christian children is sourced in Christ and in God of Exodus who was incarnated in Christ (as Christ believed and taught).
Of course Jesus, as a twelve year old boy, left an example of an obedient and parent honoring child in the Gospel of Luke. He disappeared and was found in the temple. When his distraught mother and Joseph found Him He said that He must be about His Father's business. (He was afterall, the Son of God).
Yet He subjected Himself to them after this crucial revelation.
"And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them." (Luke 2:51a)
Cont. latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jazzns, posted 01-31-2013 10:20 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 6:07 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 165 of 383 (689942)
02-06-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Theodoric
02-06-2013 1:07 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
Theodoric "Personal attacks" are usually in the eye of the beholder.
Of course you can dish out "More preaching" to me in a derogatory way. But you manifest a glass jaw when I respond in kind. "Personal attack" you say I level at you. Why? Because I said you preach too.
I think as the Gospel continues to grow quite widespread in China and Africa and India, I think the same probably applies. Women notice that the Gospel gives them a better status than many pagan religions.
In other words, if Stark is correct, there is no reason to think the factor would not apply in these times less than in the earlier times.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2013 1:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2013 12:29 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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