Summations Only

'Tis true, but deigning to acknowledge a silly jeer costs you a bit of street cred.

I am not whining about getting a jeer or two. I actually hold them as a badge of honor when certain people jeer me(not Faith, that is more like having a mosquito buzzing).I am pointing out that we can see that actual mentality unfold right here before our eyes.I let my arguments stand on their own. Not too worried about street cred. There are those here whose opinions I respect and I feel I stand ok in their eyes. There are others that I really don't care what they think of me.

Of course. You've just detailed what cred means! . Believe me. It's easy to spot jeers that aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Many of us were already laughing.FWIW I cannot remember ever seeing ICANT jeer someone.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Yes, something about damaging the speed bump on his driveway, but the specifics aren't important, it's the paranoid attitude that you hold in common with him. So none of your neighbors know you own a gun, but you have an empty gun rack in your truck so that people know there are guns in your house. Interesting logic you're using there. I mentioned drugs and alcohol in a list of possible factors involving firearm homicides. That has nothing to do with deaths due to drugs or alcohol, and also nothing to do with the other causes of death you cited like automobile accidents, poisonings and medical errors. As I noted earlier, since this thread is about firearm deaths and gun control I simply assumed you had gotten sidetracked, and so I ignored that portion of your message. I have no objection to working toward reductions of deaths from any cause, but in this thread we're addressing to the objections from the gun community to efforts aimed at reducing gun deaths.It's a good idea to cite the link you're pulling data from in each message, here's that link again: Murder Circumstances by RelationshipWe need to use consistent data. Here you say there were 8,775 firearm murders, but I was using the figure of 11,078 murders that you cited in at least 4 messages, for example here in Message 1564: So I used the figure you provided. You don't explain where your new value of 8,775 firearm murders comes from, so I'll continue to use the 11,078 figure.So if you use a consistent set of data that you'll find the numbers I calculated are pretty accurate. I was using approximate values from memory, but if use the more exact figures of 12,996 total murders and 11,078 homicides then we get 85% of homicides are by firearms instead of 90%. That's a small correction, and it still means that thousands of people are killed every year because a gun was available.By the way, I was approximating in your favor by placing all the "unknown relationship" murders in the "stranger" category. Since far more than 0% of the "unknown relationship" category involved people who did actually know each other, the number of people killed is actually larger than the number I calculated.--Percy

Hi Percy, There are over 300 million guns available in the US owned by civilians.But the availability of guns is not what you have been argueing with me. Your argument has been, in Message 1589 you said: Now when we get to 150+ million murders per year I will agree with you, that having a gun is more dangerous, unless more that half of that 150+million is in self defence.I will get to the rest of your post later.God Bless,

Hi Percy, Lets use the numbers found in the FBI records, found HereThere are tables 1-15 and table 20 listed on this site.Table 8 has homicides by weapon 2006-2010 and can be found Here
This table gives you the total numbers of murders by year and weapon used.In 2006 there was a total of 15,087 murders with 10,225 by gun and 438 by all kinds of rifles including assault rifles.In 2007 there was a total of 14916 murders with 10,129 by gun and 453 by all kinds of rifles including assault rifles.In 2008 there was a total of 14,224,murders with 9,528 by gun and 380 by all kinds of rifles including assault rifles.In 2009 there was a total of 13,752 murders with 9,199 by gun and 351 by all kinds of rifles including assault rifles.In 2010 there was a total of 12,996 murders with 8,775 by gun and 358 by all kinds of rifles including assault rifles.In 2007 you have an up tick of 15 more deaths by rifles and another up tick of 7 by rifles in 2010Murders by firearms have decreased from 2006 in, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010.We have approximately 4 million births in the U.S. and 2.4 million deaths, each year for a 1.6 million increase in population.During 2006 there was 7,361,033 NICS checks for legal sales of guns in the US.
During 2007: there was 7,530,727 NICS checks for legal sales of guns in the US.
During 2008: there was 8,426,245 NICS checks for legal sales of guns in the US.
During 2009: there was 8,927,138 NCIS checks for legal sales of guns in the US.
During 2010: there was 8,753,555 NCIS checks for legal sales of guns in the US.
This information can be found Here.Since there has been a drop in murders with all weapons and a drop in murders with guns from 2006 - 2010, and an increase of approximately 38 million guns sold and an increase of approximately 8 million people, how do you justify your position?Percy's position:

quote:

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we know that anyone who purchases a gun for home defense is in the paradoxical position of having placed themselves at greater risk.

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Now when you go to table 10 for your position to be true there must be murders that are caused by a person having a gun in their house and them becoming a victim.I covered the people that I thought could be killed with a gun that was present in the house which you did not even attempt to refute, in Message 1585
These were taken from Table 10.
Table 10 can be found HereIn an earlier post I had used the wrong table to put forth the number of self defense uses of a firearm by a gun owner which is found in table 15 which can be found Here
So let me correct those numbers I gave as there was a total of 278 justifiable homicides by private citizens. 232 of those were with guns. The other 46 was with various weapons.Table 14 found Here is justifiable homicides by police officers.
In 2010 there was 387 justifiable homicides by police officers of which 385 was with firearms, and 2 from other weapons. I hope the statistics from the FBI above will clear up any numbers that may have been wrong.So explain how you can justify your statement, "we know that anyone who purchases a gun for home defense is in the paradoxical position of having placed themselves at greater risk"?If I understand your statement I or anyone, is in greater danger of being murdered or of murdering someone because I/we have a gun in my house.Is that your position?God Bless,

\ICANT are you seriously saying that even if only 1/4 of the guns resulted in murders that you wouldn't find that enough to change your mind? Only when half of the population is murdered in a single year would you reconsider?I find your attitude mind boggling. The per capita rate you are willing to accept would result in the US being empty within a decade or so soley because of gun violence.

Hi No, I said I would agree that his premise that if you buy a gun for self defence you would be increasing you chance of being killed or killing someone, was correct.But No I would not want to give up my guns. In fact I would want bigger guns with more ammunition. Because I would want to be one of the minority that survived. No before that would happen we would be beating guns into plows in order to grow food to eat.God Bless,

So how are people in the UK surviving, then?

Hi No. Would you agree that to be able to confiscate guns owned by citizens those who would do so need to know who has guns?What would be the best way to get that information?Why not have everyone register every gun they have?
Why not require everyone to have liability insurance who has a gun?
Why not issue a card for each gun purchased?The indications are that the government is preparing for something big due to purchases of ammunition. If they are not preparing for something big then why is all the different government agencies including the post office buying millions and some agencies billions of rounds of ammunition.Are they planning a big deer hunting party. I don't think so.God Bless,

Yes, which is why registering your car is an obvious government plot to take away your car. Afterall, they need to know where those cars are so they can come and take them away. This is precisely the reguritation that I am talking about. You are one of the sheeple.Perhaps you should actually read up on the issue.Clearing Up Rumors About Government Ammo Purchases • NSSFOr perhaps you should hear it from the NRA themselves who also say that nothing strange is going on:NRA-ILA | Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy AmmunitionAgain, you are playing the role of Chicken Little at your overlords' behest. You are spreading fear as part of their propoganda machine. You are the sheeple.

Hi Taq, I don't know what you call oppressed.But paying 20% taxes on all income over 8,000 up to 41,500 and 40% on all income between 41,500 up to 150,000 and 50% over 150,000 should be oppresive to Americans.If you make between 146 and 817 per week you pay 12% for national insurance. If you make over 817 you pay an extra 2%.Lets say you are making 50,000, you have taxable income of 42,000. Your tax rate would be 40% on 42,000 which would average out to 33.6% of your 50,000 income.Then add the 12% for national insurance which comes to 45.6% and since you make more than 146 per week you add another 2% so now you have an effective income tax rate of 47.6% which allows you to get 26,200 to keep after income tax.But then you have other taxes you have to pay.There is a VAT tax that varies on different items up to 20% on all items they buy.There is a 20% duty charged on all items brought into the country which the vendors pass on to the consumer. So when you buy something that is imported you are paying 20% taxes on the item. With VAT tax paid on that tax.Then there is the council tax, (property tax) added into rent or house payments.Just think if you live in the UK and you make over 150,000 you pay a 64% tax rate.I am not positive about these numbers as they are the best I could find scattered over the internet.So maybe some of our UK posters could point out any deficency in my numbers.Can you imagine the outrage that there would be if our government slapped a 20% tax on all income over $8,000? You say well our $ and the are very different.Well if we use the value of the that $8,000 would be $12,560. So if they slapped a 20% tax all income over $12,560 I would think there would be just as much outrage.So yes I think the English people are oppresed just as the colonist thought they were oppresed when they participated in the "Taxed Enough Already" (Boston tea party).They fought a war over being oppresed.God Bless,

Interesting logic again. Let me make sure I understand you. You won't agree there is a gun problem until there are more than 150,000,000 firearm murders per year, and not even then if more than half the firearms are for self defense. Do I have that right?If so, are you insane? Okay, we'll just forget the other figure for the number of 2010 firearm murders you kept citing and use the one from the FBI. As you said, 67% of all murders are by firearm. 67% of 3947 is 2644. That's still thousands per year, and it's still approximated in your favor since all the 1637 murders of "unknown relationship" were lumped into the "strangers" category. If we instead provide a range of 3947 to 5584 total murders where murderer and victim knew each other then that's a range of 2644 to 3741 firearm murders.No matter how you cut the numbers, thousands of people are murdered every year by someone known to them, and that still dwarfs the couple hundred homeowners you claim are killed by crooks every year. If you want to reduce the number of murders every year then you have to reduce the number of guns. But you apparently love guns more than you love life, at least when it's other people's lives you're talking about.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Fix link.

I understand that. What I am suggesting is that your thinking is irrational. I don't believe there is any common ground for discussion of this subject between the two of us. Exactly. But that question of when you would give up your guns is an entirely different one from the question of recognizing that guns in society is a problem.

No, that is not how it works.Read it again: Using your example: 8000 @ 0% = 0
41,500 - 8,000 = 33,500 @ 20% = 6,700
50,000 - 41,500 = 8,500 @ 40% = 3,400Total income tax on 50,000 = 0 + 6,700 + 3,400 = 10,100
Average = 20.2%And that is just one of many mistakes in your post.
Economics is not one of your strengths.Your claim that we have an oppressively high tax rate is simply wrong.
And if taxes are the nearest you can come to identifying a source UK oppression then that is pathetic.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.