Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.

Why the strict rules?I can turn any metal into gold, I just choose not to.

The only strict rule is: if you voluntarily constrain your actions then you are constrained in your actions.So as I understand the scenario, god and lying never mix. Whether voluntary or not it is constrained in its actions.

Ive since explained my basic belief on this subject. Potentialized evil and actualized evilGod wouldn't be responsible if He had created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and choose to be out of communion..thus setting up the later tree of knowledge scenario..which could even be a parable.Edited by Phat, : fixed link

So basically Free Will is just "plausible deniability" a cunning way of hiding responsibility. If God is truly omniscient he knew exactly what Lucifer would do if created as he was. All of it. In that case God is MORE responsible for Lucifer's actions than Lucifer is !

How so? And don't drag A&E into this, as is often done. If YOU personally are given instructions/directions, whatever...to make a choice, and if you evade the choice, who is responsible? If your Boss gives you something to do and you question his motives or wisdom is this his fault?You may claim that you see no evidence of the Bosses existence, and may even further assert that even if this Boss existed, he was no Boss of yours....but again, that is your choice and your responsibility.My point is that I am going with this scenario as a parable and a life lesson. Responsibility is the key word. I am not necessarily warning those of you who after honest evaluation have determined that you and only you are responsible for your actions and behaviors. I am just saying that you are just as responsible as I am.Further...assuming for a moment that there is a sort of a spiritual choice, we humans are responsible for the choice, even if God provided the only possible options. The cop out is assigning blame on God for making a foreknown potentially faulty product. Edited by Phat, : spelling

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How so? And don't drag A&E into this, as is often done. If YOU personally are given instructions/directions, whatever...to make a choice, and if you evade the choice, who is responsible? If your Boss gives you something to do and you question his motives or wisdom is this his fault?

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Why would I drag Adam and Eve int it ? And why would you think that I would when I have already stated the point: We are responsible for even reasonably forseeable consequences of our actions. How much more responsible must we be for consequences that we knew would inevitably happen.

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My point is that I am going with this scenario as a parable and a life lesson. Responsibility is the key word. I am not necessarily warning those of you who after honest evaluation have determined that you and only you are responsible for your actions and behaviors. I am just saying that you are just as responsible as I am.

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And I am saying that God is responsible for events that inevitably follow from his decisions - and that he knows in advance will inevitably follow. Omnipotence makes it even worse. Since God is limited only by logical necessity he has very fine control over what happens. So your lesson is not one in accepting responsibility - it is one about finding excuses - to DENY responsibility.Free Will or not, the creations of an omniscient and omnipotent creator are in a very real sense the puppets of their creator. Therefore the creator bears the primary responsibility for the actions of his creations.

Hello, AB! Welcome to EvC! doesn't appear to be saying what Titus says.....

I suppose I wont disagree that in the big picture, God is ultimately responsible for reality...in that He set it up.Would you then not agree that God..if God exists...is responsible for you and your destiny?

Note though that it is not God that is lying. It is His creation.Lets analyze just what it is that God is supposedly sending to the creation.... Cast of characters:
1) God.
2) Satan(and/or lawless one) perhaps two things.
3) "They" who perish...here, the thing being sent to (3) is delusion. I suppose the questions are numerous. Regardless of WHO sent it or WHO embraced it, we could argue that God is ultimately responsible...what with creating all of the characters.
An argument couldbe made, however, that the characters themselves...by having choices...become the decisions that they make.Perhaps the question is this. Are we responsible for believing the choice that we are given?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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I suppose I wont disagree that in the big picture, God is ultimately responsible for reality...in that He set it up.

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It's worse than that. If your God exists, then by creating the Universe as he did and intervening as he did he's dictated every event in the Universe that has ever happened in the universe, including every free will decision. Every single one.

I simply and totally disagree. Are you telling me that just because He knows your next move you didn't make it? I am assuming you think it would be more fair if you could do something he didn't know about or couldn't control.(Assuming "My" God existed. )Dont take this personal, but it is entirely logical within my scenario that Lucifer/Satan would use your exact same argument to protest against Gods power monopoly. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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I simply and totally disagree. Are you telling me that just because He knows your next move you didn't make it? I am assuming you think it would be more fair if you could do something he didn't know about or couldn't control.

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(Assuming "My" God existed. )

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Again you're simply ignoring the issue of the creators's responsibility for the actions of the creation. If I am to have primary responsibility I have to be able to make decisions which weren't dictated by God. And given an omniscient omnipotent creator that just isn't possible.

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Dont take this personal, but it is entirely logical within my scenario that Lucifer/Satan would use your exact same argument to protest against Gods power monopoly.

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Of course it is logical that Lucifer would use a valid and truthful defence if it was available to him. That doesn't make it any less valid or truthful.

the issue with Lucifer is that he always assumes himself to be God himself. Thus he challenges God and attempts even to defeat Him in "court" so to speak. Assuming that our hypothetical argument/discussion continues along this line, I suppose that if you play devils advocate I am obliged to speak in defense or representation for God. Problem is, I'm not God. Lucifer thinks that he is.If I claim that in the final analysis my "guy" wins...you would always have a counter argument. Perhaps the issue is a personal one....how seriously we as individuals embrace or reject the entire scenario.And granted there are good arguments for rejecting the christian story. I also see that your whole challenge to the belief based on abdication of personal responsibility is a good one, and, given that...I will agree with you. Even if I believed that God was willing to take on all of my sins and imperfections, making the mistake of absolving myself of personal responsibility would be unwise.I suppose I could blame Him, but how would that help anyone?---at this point, a critic may ask why, then, do people willfully trust and place all of their blames and guilt (and responsibilities) on Jesus? Is that a fair assessment of where the argument could swing?

Ahhhh.jars old argument that the devil told the truth and that God lied.That one never set right with me...it reduced God to a human evolving creation rather than a Spirit of Truth that defeated an angel of Lies.Can you help me see a proper answer on His behalf? If not, what would Lucifer use in court that would shut the Almighty mouth?

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Ahhhh.jars old argument that the devil told the truth and that God lied.

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No, it isn't. It's more that you have to actually refute my argument rather than assert that Lucifer could use it. It's said that the Devil can quote scripture. Does that make scripture wrong?

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That one never set right with me...it reduced God to a human evolving creation rather than a Spirit of Truth that defeated an angel of Lies.

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I don't think that preferring strict Monotheism over Dualism would reduce God. In fact that's really the issue here. You would be happier with a reduced God.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.