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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 354 (354133)
10-04-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
10-04-2006 10:36 AM


In The Beginning?
Quite frankly, im not sure what God thought In The Beginning.
I've never gotten an answer from Him, nor have I chatted with Adam or Eve yet.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 354 (354455)
10-05-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mark24
10-05-2006 11:03 AM


Omni Will versus Free Will within nature
mark24 writes:
There can be no free-will because the outcome is already determined. God is omniscient, right? He knows what's going to happen, therefore there is only the illusion of free-will for the individual making the decision. If god has seen an outcome in advance, it is predestined, if it is predestined, it isn't free-will.
Just because we are limited from doing everything does not mean we are incapable of exercising free will within the limits of humanity.
After all...we ourselves are not the authors of our eternal destiny.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 354 (490683)
12-07-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by override
12-06-2008 7:03 PM


Depends on who God is to you
Hi, override and welcome to EvC!
Some people believe that humanity ultimately imagined God.
Others go out on a limb and assert that God exists and imagined us long before we had the mental capability to imagine Him.
What do you believe?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 354 (690014)
02-07-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
10-05-2006 9:09 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
Ive since explained my basic belief on this subject.
Potentialized evil and actualized evil
God wouldn't be responsible if He had created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and choose to be out of communion..thus setting up the later tree of knowledge scenario..which could even be a parable.
Edited by Phat, : fixed link

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 354 (690016)
02-07-2013 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by PaulK
02-07-2013 3:39 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
PaulK writes:
So basically Free Will is just "plausible deniability" a cunning way of hiding responsibility.
How so? And don't drag A&E into this, as is often done. If YOU personally are given instructions/directions, whatever...to make a choice, and if you evade the choice, who is responsible? If your Boss gives you something to do and you question his motives or wisdom is this his fault?
You may claim that you see no evidence of the Bosses existence, and may even further assert that even if this Boss existed, he was no Boss of yours....but again, that is your choice and your responsibility.
My point is that I am going with this scenario as a parable and a life lesson. Responsibility is the key word. I am not necessarily warning those of you who after honest evaluation have determined that you and only you are responsible for your actions and behaviors. I am just saying that you are just as responsible as I am.
Further...assuming for a moment that there is a sort of a spiritual choice, we humans are responsible for the choice, even if God provided the only possible options. The cop out is assigning blame on God for making a foreknown potentially faulty product.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 354 (690020)
02-07-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by PaulK
02-07-2013 4:16 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
I suppose I wont disagree that in the big picture, God is ultimately responsible for reality...in that He set it up.
Would you then not agree that God..if God exists...is responsible for you and your destiny?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 279 of 354 (690021)
02-07-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Coragyps
02-07-2013 5:18 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Note though that it is not God that is lying. It is His creation.
Lets analyze just what it is that God is supposedly sending to the creation....
NIV writes:
2 Thess 2:8-12-- The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Cast of characters:
1) God.
2) Satan(and/or lawless one) perhaps two things.
3) "They" who perish...
here, the thing being sent to (3) is delusion.
Strongs writes:
NT:4106
plane (plan'-ay); feminine of NT:4108 (as abstractly); objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety:
I suppose the questions are numerous. Regardless of WHO sent it or WHO embraced it, we could argue that God is ultimately responsible...what with creating all of the characters.
An argument couldbe made, however, that the characters themselves...by having choices...become the decisions that they make.
Perhaps the question is this. Are we responsible for believing the choice that we are given?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 281 of 354 (690030)
02-07-2013 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by PaulK
02-07-2013 6:24 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
I simply and totally disagree. Are you telling me that just because He knows your next move you didn't make it? I am assuming you think it would be more fair if you could do something he didn't know about or couldn't control.
(Assuming "My" God existed. )
Dont take this personal, but it is entirely logical within my scenario that Lucifer/Satan would use your exact same argument to protest against Gods power monopoly.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 354 (690049)
02-08-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by PaulK
02-08-2013 1:21 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
the issue with Lucifer is that he always assumes himself to be God himself. Thus he challenges God and attempts even to defeat Him in "court" so to speak. Assuming that our hypothetical argument/discussion continues along this line, I suppose that if you play devils advocate I am obliged to speak in defense or representation for God. Problem is, I'm not God. Lucifer thinks that he is.
If I claim that in the final analysis my "guy" wins...you would always have a counter argument. Perhaps the issue is a personal one....how seriously we as individuals embrace or reject the entire scenario.
And granted there are good arguments for rejecting the christian story. I also see that your whole challenge to the belief based on abdication of personal responsibility is a good one, and, given that...I will agree with you. Even if I believed that God was willing to take on all of my sins and imperfections, making the mistake of absolving myself of personal responsibility would be unwise.
I suppose I could blame Him, but how would that help anyone?---at this point, a critic may ask why, then, do people willfully trust and place all of their blames and guilt (and responsibilities) on Jesus? Is that a fair assessment of where the argument could swing?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 354 (690051)
02-08-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by PaulK
02-08-2013 1:21 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
PaulK writes:
Of course it is logical that Lucifer would use a valid and truthful defence if it was available to him. That doesn't make it any less valid or truthful.
Ahhhh.jars old argument that the devil told the truth and that God lied.
That one never set right with me...it reduced God to a human evolving creation rather than a Spirit of Truth that defeated an angel of Lies.
Can you help me see a proper answer on His behalf? If not, what would Lucifer use in court that would shut the Almighty mouth?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 354 (690077)
02-08-2013 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by ringo
02-08-2013 11:37 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
God never directly created evil. He created potential evil. Evil never became actual until it was chosen. If your robot has the power of choice programmed into it and it directly makes that choice, you are only responsible for creating choice...not actual evil. And even if you could be accused of such, your accusers have no power or ability to judge you since they all are of no higher moral character.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 294 of 354 (690123)
02-09-2013 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Theodoric
02-08-2013 5:46 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
I never said that He was not all knowing and I never said that He was not all powerful.
Edited by Phat, : edited

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 354 (690124)
02-09-2013 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Tangle
02-08-2013 7:32 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Tangle writes:
So your God set us all up to fail?
Or rather he set up one guy and one girl to fail, and when they failed (which he could foresee, because he is, in fact, omniscient), he sentenced the rest of humanity - in their untold billions - to death and the possibility/probability of everlasting damnation.
have I got that right?
Not exactly. At best, you could successfully argue that God set Lucifer up to choose to become Satan.
I have not brought Adam & Eve into it. The issue, if there is one, is not about the fairness or unfairness of the Biblical God dealing with humanity. The issue is about current adults (those of us involved in this discussion) arguing whether or not we need to defend our individual right to accept the authority or reject the authority of a Creator Spirit and defend the alleged right of a defeated spirit. We are arguing my hypothetical as I presented it.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 296 of 354 (690127)
02-09-2013 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by ringo
02-09-2013 11:29 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
So if you give a baby a bottle of poison, whatever happens is a result of his choices.... Sounds like you're scrambling to absolve your god of any kind of responsibility. Omnipotent but irresponsible doesn't sound like a good combination to me.
Lets clarify your terms.
Who is "the baby"? We are all adults here.
What is "the poison"?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 354 (690133)
02-09-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
02-09-2013 12:42 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
What is "the poison"?
Ringo writes:
Anything that has consequences. Why should God get the credit for giving us opportunites and then take no responsibility for the consequences?
Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?

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