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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 181 of 383 (689998)
02-07-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jaywill
02-06-2013 4:26 PM


Re: The NT and Women ?
In other words, if Stark is correct, there is no reason to think the factor would not apply in these times less than in the earlier times.
But Stark is not talking about modern times. Ergo, goodbye argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jaywill, posted 02-06-2013 4:26 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 182 of 383 (690050)
02-08-2013 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Jazzns
02-07-2013 12:14 PM


Re: Paul versus Paul
Yes! You are right! Paul in Philemon is very effective in his plea to a Christian slave master to accept his slave...
What is impressive is HOW Paul teaches the Christian brother (master) to receive his runaway servant.
Because Paul is occupied with building the "one new man" Philemon is to receive Onisemus as a beloved brother. He is also to receive him exactly as he would receive Paul himself. He is to receive Onisemus as Paul's heart and Paul's child.
He is to receive Onesimus as Paul's co-worker in the gospel outreach. And he is to recevie Onesimus back as one whose status is the same as Philemon's own son Archippus of Philemon's household.
In the goal of building up the church in the locality of Philemon, Paul instructs this way. His FOCUS is the building up a practical expression of the "one new man" in various cities.
... no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother-especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.
Paul prefaces this with a very strong statement. He says that he is EMPOWERED TO COMMAND Philemon to do this for Onesimus but that he would rather Philemon do it of his own accord:
It is important not to miss this. Paul has some apostolic authority over the local assemblies raised up under his ministry. He could COMMAND. But he wants the right thing to come out of the members of the church VOLUNTARILY. That is subjectively and willingly from their OWN wisdom and discision.
Paul is just there to give some guidance. This is quite beautiful. This letter is not an edict. This letter is aan encouragement for Philemon to go along with what the Holy Spirit within him wishes to do.
So Paul says "Having confidence in your obedience, I have written to you, knowing that you will do even beyond the things that I say." (v.21)
That is Philemon is expectedd not just to grudgingly do the bare minimum for a outward show. Paul has confidence in the Christ living within him. Philemon will do even BEYOND Paul's meager request.
This is also important because each member of the Body of Christ is directly under Christ the Head. As in a human body, each member moves by the direction of the head. My brain directs my arm. My brain directs my hand. My brain directs my fingers. And my brain directs EACH finger.
Philemon, Onisemus, Paul, Archippus, Apphia, and Timothy are all members of the Body of Christ receiving thier directions directly from the head Jesus.
"Holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Out from whom all the Body; being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and [through] the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:15-16)
Paul is dealing with a living and organic Body. This Body is growing with Jesus Christ within each member as divine life. And Jesus Christ is the one head. Paul is just one of the joining legiments supplying life to the Boby.
Now in the Paul of First Corinthians we have this confirming word:
"But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:3)
I take "Christ is the head of every man" to mean Christ is the head of every male man and female "man".
Paul in the Philemon letter and in his exhortations in Ephesians 5 and 6 is directing all members of the Body of Christ to be under the ONE HEAD of the whole mystical Body - Christ.
For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do your duty, yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love
Exactly. The behavior is to flow out of Philemon and Onisemus voluntarily. I am pretty sure that Onisemus did not HAVE to return with that letter. He could have chucked the letter and skipped town completely forgetting about Paul, Philemon and everyone else.
Paul desires the right thing to come out would be more than he requests. He expects that it will emmerge voluntarily and willingly only needed a little fellowship. The letter is not an eddict.
This Paul is awesome! This is an enduring example of both morality and effective leadership.
How beautiful is his reasoning directed toward trying to convince Philemon to free Onesimus? Paul says he is holding back the hammer and yet he even offers to take Onesimus' debt in order to make it happen without that.
I agree.
How could Paul forget this eloquence when he later wrote to the Ephesians?
It is the same Apostle Paul with the same apostolic ministry.
Before Paul touches the down to earth practical circumstances of various believers he first portrays the big picture of what their whole Christian experience is for.
It is for the building of living habitation of God in spirit. It is a organic growing entity with Jesus Christ as the Head knitting and blending all the members together into a corperate expression of God mingled with humanity.
In short this church is the collective manifestation of what Christ is - a man mingled with God - God living in a man - a man living God, living out God and God living through a human being.
This is a supernatural entity. This is no society of the fallen Adamic world or nature. This is a supernatural structure growing by the dispensing of God into man.
But it is in the world too. So some matters of her occupying the world have to be touched. Family realities, servant and master realities. Paul's sphere of advice is towards the church. He is not scolding Roman society at large as to how to have a better world.
It is clear to me that Paul identified kidnapping as a sin. So the slavery he is dealing with is probably not that kind of slavery. The law forbade the return of a runaway slave to his master.
quote:
"You shall not deliver to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you; He shall dwell with you, even in your midst, in the place which he chooses among your towns, wherever he pleases; you shall not oppress him." (Deut 23:15,16)
Paul had to have regarded these matters. And his condemnation of kidnapping in First Timothy was reminiscent of Exodus 21
quote:
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
As a former Pharisee Paul must have known the ban on kidnapping would not encourage an apostle of the Gospel to instruct the Christian brothers to keep kidnapped slaves.
This does not mean other forms of dept servitude were free from problems.
And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.
How do you go from accept them as "no longer as a slave" and as "a beloved brother", to "Stop threatening them".
By stop threatening them. By realizing that this is a Christian brother to whom I should render what is "just and equal" (Colossians 4:1).
"Masters, grant to your slaves that which is just and equal, knowing that you have a Master in heaven."
Paul equalizes the status in the "one new man" by telling the masters to do the same towards the slave as the slave is to render to the master in sowing and reaping "good thing".
"Knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or a free man.
And master, DO THE SAME THINGS toward them, giving up threatening ..."
Paul puts the fear of God into both the master and the slave - "knowing that both their Master and yours is in the heavens, and there no respect of persons with Him."
I don't know how you can get more parochial than that. I also don't know how you accept this situation as legitimate LET ALONE CLAIM that Philemon is in support of Ephesians. You have it exactly backwards!
In all the exhortations Paul teaches that each Christian needs the empowering grace of Christ. It is Christ living within that enables the disciples to live Christ out. So Paul's final word very often turns the believers back to the indwelling grace of Christ -
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Philemon 25)
"Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ incorruptibility." (Eph. 6:24)
The apostle's confidence is not in your magnanimus and liberal sense of social reform. His trust is not in you and I in ourselves. His trust is in the grace of Jesus Christ as He has become our indwelling living Lord and Savior.
He writes that Christ would make His home in our hearts through faith (Eph. 3:17) . This is not sentimental talk. This is actual truth of the New Testament. Jesus Christ Himself is our only hope to fulfill God's purpose. By faith we must let God dispense this victorious and righeous One into our personalities.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Jazzns, posted 02-07-2013 12:14 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:11 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 183 of 383 (690112)
02-09-2013 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Jazzns
02-06-2013 6:07 PM


Re: He who would be first
Are you really so enamoured with these letters that you would go so far as to reduce the stature of a wife to that of a child in order to save Ephesians? Why not just take an open eyed look at the evidence and put Ephesians rightly in its place, an at best questionable piece of purely human writing.
There are other truths of the Christian life that I take into account which you may be completely ignoring.
Let's talk about the whole matter of leadership. When the disciples argued amongst each other as to which one of them was the greatest, Jesus taught them that the greatest was the one who was servant of all.
"But Jesus called them to Him and said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great exercise authority
over them.
Is shall not be so among you; but whoever wants to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever wants to be first among you shall be your slave;
Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
While you may look at Paul's word to wives / husbands, and servants and masters, and childen and parents and recoil in revulsion, the Christian need not.
For the Son of God taught us that to WANT to be first and a leader you must be a servant of the rest. Jesus taught that the believer who exalts himself will be humbled. But the one who humbles himself will be exalted because he or she manifests Christ in service to others.
Now this with the natural life is impossible. For the natural life of Adam is proud, self serving, loving to be first, loving to boss around other people.
But the Son of God is the divine Person whom God installs into the believer by the dispensing of the Holy Spirit. This one loves to serve others as a slave.
The husband then can be empowered to serve wife and children. And wife also can be Christ like. And the child with the vision also can adopt God's criteria of greatness. So also both the legal servant and the legal master.
The divine nature is not pigish or chauvanistic. It manifests Christ who came to give His life as a ransom for all.
" And whoever wants to be first among you shall be a slave of all." (Mark 10:44)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 6:07 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 184 of 383 (690158)
02-09-2013 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jazzns
02-04-2013 5:36 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
I read your entire post and I would like to distill it down to one issue.
Everything you quoted, has to do with slavery from the perspective of the bondage. I get the whole theology of being a slave for others and a slave for Christ. I get the notion of being a servant. Those are ideas that have potential. I don't have a problem with that.
I guess then it is not ok to be a slave in an earthly sense, but only in reality, in a spiritual sense. However, it is never ok to be a master. In a way that doesn't seem entirely self-consistent.
So one difference between you and I is that you say:
1. Nothing is morally worse than being a master, owning another man, and nothing that is happening today is comparable to that. You say this is a consummate evil and that fact that that does not happen overtly today means that we are morally superior to those of Paul's day.
I say (with Paul) that:
1. There are some things worse than being a master, for example, being a evil master, and some things worse than being a slave, for example, being an evil slave.
I also say that there are things going on today that are comparable in many ways to the worst evils manifested in the slave culture in America in the last century. It does not take 'legalized slavery' to give manifestation to evil. Evil is evil whenever and wherever it is manifested. And there are equivalent relationships today where some exploit and some are exploited.
Is not exploitation the thing that should be exposed and judged? Exploitation on one side and (I don't know how to term the other thing but I'll call it) 'lack of faithful service' on the other side. These are moral issues that span all ages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Jazzns, posted 02-04-2013 5:36 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:12 PM Richh has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 185 of 383 (690161)
02-09-2013 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Jazzns
02-07-2013 10:30 AM


Re: Ephesians - words as bearing on content and authorship
How does the number of particular words a book uses tell us about its value?
I would love to answer this question in detail. I did quote 7 verses in the previous post. I'd like to comment on each one in that sample of 7 verses or on all 54 verses, but I'm not sure you are asking for that. But that is how to ascertain the value of a book. So, I guess it is not just the words, but also the sentences, that are important.
Do you think there are other reasons why people had problems with this book and rejected it from orthodox christianity?
The Gospel of Truth, the Gnostic writing that you mentioned, has a different theology than the New Testament. The different theology is the reason Gnosticism has been labeled a heresy.
How does the words and numbers of them tell us that Paul is actually the author?
Neither of us were there when the writer penned the epistle. I believe the words, the sentences, the high revelation, the testimony of church history, the other writings of Paul, the book of Acts are all among the evidences as to the authorship of this book. I find enough evidence for my faith.
Edited by Richh, : Change the title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Jazzns, posted 02-07-2013 10:30 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 186 of 383 (690178)
02-09-2013 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Jazzns
02-06-2013 5:48 PM


Re: A Display of Infinite Kindness
My problem with God, if he is as is described in the Bible, is that he is a sadistic and evil dictator who has no business appealing to the cause of human suffering.
Because we are chiefly on Ephesians my reply to this sentence will mainly be from that book.
Here are some reasons from Ephesians why I couldn't agree with your assessment:
1.) God made provision to solve our problem against Him while we were helpless to do so ourselves.
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) ..." (2:4,5)
The mercy of God reaches down to those helpless and hopeless - "even when we were dead in offenses".
This is not an evil dictator but a merciful Savior. He reached the sinners while they were spiritually walking dead men subsisting in a state of constant offenses against God.
2.) God's intention is to put on a eternal display. That is a theater of His boundles kindness towards the saved.
"That He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus." (2:7)
Just how extensive and how intensive can God's kindness be towards the forgiven sinner, that is the issue to be put on display. In the plural "ages" to come the measure of His riches in grace will kindly be revealed as surpassing all that we can imagine of even ask:
"But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us." (3:20)
As you can see this manifestation of divine kindness is not altogether outside of man and upon man. Rather it is the working of God WITHIN man effecting his inward constitution and personality - "above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us ..."
3.) The final goal of God's salvation puts the redeemed sinner in a state identical to that of His Righteous Son -with no defect at all - perfection -
" ... even as He chose us in Him ... that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ ..." (1:5)
Rather that an evil dictator we have a eternal Father placing His sons in a realm in which they eventually end up as faultless in character as the perfect Christ - holy and without blemish.
The individual state of perfection is latter discribed as the corperate and aggregate perfection of a collective symbolic "wife" of Christ.
"That He [Christ] might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, that He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (5:16,17)
How kind God is to wash the sinners (not only with the redeeming blood of Christ) but with the water of the word. His speaking carries away defilement and adds the element of God into the believers. Wrinkles are of oldness. Spots are of foriegn elements that defile man like sin. Both are gradually washed totally away until what is left MATCHES Christ their Savior. To be His Wife speaks of MATCHING Christ perfectly.
4.) Another factor of God's kindness rather than evil dictatorialness is that this salvation is a process. Rather than the SHOCK of being instantaneously transformed, God uses TIME that this new humanity may be gradually put on as a process.
"That you put off as regards you former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit,
And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holuness of the reality." (4:22-24)
The new man, this new humanity, which is a humanity mingled and saturated with God Himself, is put on by the ongoing renewal of the mind.
The mind being enlightened and renewed leads to the transformation of the soul. We are not yanked into the transformation. Rather the believer is gently renewed "metobolically" like growth into maturity.
To be born only takes and instant. To mature into an adult takes a life time. As in the natural realm so also God takes the forgiven sinner through an instantaneous rebirth in being born again but a slow and sure transformation of the renewing of the mind.
So the Triune God is neither evil nor sadistic nor a dictator in Ephesians. The gospel Paul preaches he calls "the unsearchable riches of Christ" (3:8)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Jazzns, posted 02-06-2013 5:48 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 187 of 383 (690270)
02-11-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jaywill
02-08-2013 8:38 AM


Re: Paul versus Paul
How could Paul forget this eloquence when he later wrote to the Ephesians?
It is the same Apostle Paul with the same apostolic ministry.
How do you go from accept them as "no longer as a slave" and as "a beloved brother", to "Stop threatening them".
By stop threatening them. By realizing that this is a Christian brother to whom I should render what is "just and equal" (Colossians 4:1).
You missed the point entirely. Paul in Ephesians could have given a message to slave masters that was of the same theme that he gave to Philemon. But he did not do that.
Simple ceasing to threaten your slaves does not make you "just and equal". What Paul spoke to Philemon to do was in fact "just and equal". Why did he not give that same message in Ephesians?
The apostle's confidence is not in your magnanimus and liberal sense of social reform. His trust is not in you and I in ourselves. His trust is in the grace of Jesus Christ as He has become our indwelling living Lord and Savior.
When people use his words to drive social reform, it becomes the business of those who wish to move us forward to deconstruct the badly justified claims. In your apologetics, everything may be fine and dandy for yourself, unified in the indwelling of Christ of whatever. But not all people read or have read the bible the way you do. They do not use the hammer of apologetics to try to bang out the dents left by these obvious contradictions.
They will simply persist in cognitive dissonance about the difference between Paul in Philemon and Paul in Ephesians. Or they may just simply use the Bible like you fear, taking pieces as they need for their own agenda. Or they may just be completely ignorant of the differences because they don't read the bible a whole book at a time.
I am glad that you have found a way to harmonize all this for yourself. But what I see from how you justify this, you are using faith to smooth over a jagged edge in a plain reading of the text. Your explanation only works if you believe in the list of premises encoded in your preaching.
I do not believe, so the jagged edge remains.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2013 8:38 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 7:21 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 188 of 383 (690271)
02-11-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jaywill
02-09-2013 9:55 AM


Re: He who would be first
Are you really so enamoured with these letters that you would go so far as to reduce the stature of a wife to that of a child in order to save Ephesians? Why not just take an open eyed look at the evidence and put Ephesians rightly in its place, an at best questionable piece of purely human writing.
There are other truths of the Christian life that I take into account which you may be completely ignoring.
Why are you going off on a tangent? I was still interested in discussing your justification for men's authority over women.
Since you responded to one of my previous posts, I don't know if you saw this from my response to you about your authority argument. Please, help me just understand what you are trying to say. Hopefully you just misclicked and meant to reply to this:
Jazzns previously writes:
I am not sure how important it is that I agree or disagree with this. Let me just see if I understand this and I'll ask you to respond if my characterization is inaccurate. If this is an accurate summary of what you are saying then I may have more to comment on it.
1. Both Paul and Jesus, in other places, talk about submission to authority.
2. The husband is an authority to the wife on the basis that SHE accepts his desire for her to be his wife.
3. Because of this acceptance, the edicts about submission from step 1 apply and THAT is what makes Ephesians 5
concordant with Jesus and Paul elsewhere.
Did I characterize that appropriatly? I am honestly just trying to reflect this back to make sure we have the same understanding of your point.
Am I understanding you jaywill?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jaywill, posted 02-09-2013 9:55 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 189 of 383 (690272)
02-11-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Richh
02-09-2013 5:04 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
So one difference between you and I is that you say:
Don't put words in my mouth, that not what I said and you are ignoring my point.
I specifically said that I agree that there are still wrongs akin to slavery going on today. My retort to you was that those things are STILL EVIL and worthy of condemnation.
My criticism of Paul is not that he failed to produce a laundry list of evil things. My criticism is that he endorses ONE evil thing that we have for the most part rid ourselves of no thanks to him. But that only really matters if you are assuming that Paul is being self-consistent which I don't think anyone has adequatly supported.
My MAIN criticism is that Paul is being inconsistent with himself and in particular the values of the early church. In Acts, you see the beginnings of a totally egalitarian resistance movement. Property no longer belongs to the self, people of all kinds, sinners, poor, rich, sick, even Gentiles are all made equal. In Paul's own ministry, from his genuine epistles, is for the most part a pretty egalitarian dude. As you may have seen in my discussion with jaywill, Paul even talks about the issue of slaver to Philemon in a lot of eloquence, humility, and authority. What does he tell Philemon...he tells him that the Christian thing to do is to FREE his slave.
So, its not JUST that Paul in Ephesians fails to condemn slavery. Its that he fails to do so given the fact that he had in the past, in a most superior manner, consistent with the behavior of the early church. That, I think is one of the things that tips the scale to the side of this letter not being legitimate.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Richh, posted 02-09-2013 5:04 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Richh, posted 02-11-2013 6:14 PM Jazzns has replied
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 Message 301 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 9:58 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 190 of 383 (690273)
02-11-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by jaywill
02-09-2013 11:26 PM


Re: A Display of Infinite Kindness
My problem with God, if he is as is described in the Bible, is that he is a sadistic and evil dictator who has no business appealing to the cause of human suffering.
As I said when I mentioned it, I do not think that my opinions about God are on topic. I stopped believing in God because of the problem of human suffering, not because the people who write about him or who validated the authority of the books are terrible at their job. I would be willing to talk about it in another thread if you care to propose it. Or if you care, you can post in my deconversion thread if you search for it.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jaywill, posted 02-09-2013 11:26 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 191 of 383 (690275)
02-11-2013 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Richh
02-09-2013 5:36 PM


Re: Ephesians - words as bearing on content and authorship
So, I guess it is not just the words, but also the sentences, that are important.
Right, so why did you bring up the number of words?
The Gospel of Truth, the Gnostic writing that you mentioned, has a different theology than the New Testament. The different theology is the reason Gnosticism has been labeled a heresy.
Right, not because it had an insufficient number of the correct words. Do you see why I made that point?
Neither of us were there when the writer penned the epistle. I believe the words, the sentences, the high revelation, the testimony of church history, the other writings of Paul, the book of Acts are all among the evidences as to the authorship of this book. I find enough evidence for my faith.
Thats great for you. I don't find that sufficient and in fact I find the contradictions revealing.
When police are doing detective work, its not the concurrences between witnesses and evidence that is most revealing as to the truth of the case. It is the differences between those things that are most enlightening.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Richh, posted 02-09-2013 5:36 PM Richh has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 192 of 383 (690315)
02-11-2013 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 12:12 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
So, its not JUST that Paul in Ephesians fails to condemn slavery. Its that he fails to do so given the fact that he had in the past, in a most superior manner, consistent with the behavior of the early church. That, I think is one of the things that tips the scale to the side of this letter not being legitimate.
Paul didn't condemn slavery in Philemon. He spent a lot of words asking Philemon to receive Onesimus (as per the synopsis below from Fausset's Bible Dictionary and the shot epistle itself). It is not clear to me that he even asked Philemon to free him. Onesimus is a slave name that means 'profitable'. Paul indicates his hope that Onesimus would 'live up to his name' and be profitable both the Philemon and to Paul himself. It seems if Paul were so violently opposed to slavery he might have recommended a new name.
2815.03 Aim. This epistle is a beautiful sample of Christianity applied to every day life and home relations and mutual duty of master and servant (Ps. 101:2-7). Onesimus of Colosse, (Col. 4:9), Philemon's slave, had fled to Rome after defrauding his master (Philem. 1:18). Paul there was instrumental in converting him; then persuaded him to return (Philem. 1:12) and gave him this epistle, recommending him to Philemon's favorable reception as henceforth about to be his "forever," no longer unprofitable but, realizing his name, "profitable to Paul and Philemon" (Philem. 1:11,15).
It also appears that you don't set much store by Paul's words in I Cor.
1 Corinthians 7:17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20 Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:12 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 8:18 PM Richh has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 193 of 383 (690322)
02-11-2013 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jaywill
01-09-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Ephesus - and 'One New Man'
I will use Phat's original quote on this section with a section bolded by me.
NIV writes:
Eph 2:11-22--Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
This one new man here seems to be something entirely corporate and the NIV and NASB translate it as 'one new man'. But in Ephesians 4 the context begins with references about our 'manner of life' goes on at the end to 'speaking truthfully to' our neighbor. These seem to be about our practices and not about a corporate entity. Therefore I think some translators translate the Greek work for man here into self.
Ephesians 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Colossians seems to begin with things relating to our practices and end with something manifestly corporate.
Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
I will add the Darby version of Colossians because I like it better.
Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth, fornication, uncleanness, vile passions, evil lust, and unbridled desire, which is idolatry. 6 On account of which things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 In which *ye* also once walked when ye lived in these things. 8 But now, put off, *ye* also, all these things, wrath, anger, malice, blasphemy, vile language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him; 11 wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is everything, and in all.
Romans mentions 'our old man' and this seems to be individual. The NIV and NASB translate it to self here too.
Romans 6:1 What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Far be the thought. We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it? 3 Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death? 4 We have been buried therefore with him by baptism unto death, in order that, even as Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so *we* also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin.
Surely it is a matter of critical importance - the question of which 'man' we are living in - both for a Christian and for an unbeliever. The wrath of God comes
How do the living of a person and the 'entity' of the one new man intersect?
Edited by Richh, : Corrected a reference
Edited by Richh, : Fixed a typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jaywill, posted 01-09-2013 12:09 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 194 of 383 (690333)
02-11-2013 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Richh
02-11-2013 6:14 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
It is not clear to me that he even asked Philemon to free him.
What? Really?
Paul in Philemon writes:
Perhaps this is the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother
What do the words "no longer a slave" mean to you?
It also appears that you don't set much store by Paul's words in I Cor.
And yet inside of your very quote:
1 Cor 7:21 writes:
Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
Notice again that Paul is talking to the slave not the master. I don't really know how to make it any clearer. There is no exhortation to slave masters in that quote. He is saying, don't fret about your position. Your quote is one of many that is indicative of a Paul who is convinced of the very imminent return of Christ. Similarly, early in 1 Corinthians Paul says:
1 Cor 7:8 writes:
To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am.
Paul really believes the whole, "this generation shall not pass away" stuff. Too bad he was disappointed.
Also, I never claimed that Paul was or should be a crusader for social justice. That is something you and jaywill seem to be trying to force upon me. You aren't dealing with the contradiction AND you aren't dealing with the immorality.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Richh, posted 02-11-2013 6:14 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 02-12-2013 9:00 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 203 by Richh, posted 02-13-2013 11:06 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 243 by Richh, posted 02-21-2013 10:45 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 195 of 383 (690339)
02-11-2013 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
01-07-2013 11:41 AM


Re: Pauline Collection Cover Letter
Jlicher and Goodspeed suggested that Ephesians may have served as an introduction to the collection of Pauline letters.
If someone is hypothesizing that Ephesians is not what it purports to be, I wonder if 'conclusion' is not more reasonable hypothesis than 'introduction'. The reason I say this is because it seems to me that the revelation in Ephesians is higher than the revelation Paul's other epistles on things like the will of God and the aspects of the church. Why would someone put some superior as an introduction to a set of epistles that have have less revelation on certain topics.
I found the following quote in Marvin Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament. He in turn quotes Dean Alford in his introduction to this epistle.
...But when we begin to inquire why thought succeeds to thought, and one cumbrous parenthesis to another - depths under depths disclose themselves...every, the more we search, approves itself as set in its exact logical place; we see every phrase contributing by its own similar organization ant articulation to the carrying out of the organic whole. But the result is not won without much labor of thought, without repeated and minute laying together of portions and expressions, without bestowing on single words and phrases, and their succession and arrangement, as much as would suffice for whole sections of more exoteric epistles.
I agree with his assessment. Also time would be available to develop such a summarizing statement during the period of reduced activity which Paul's imprisonment imposed on him.
Edited by Richh, : Fixed a typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 01-07-2013 11:41 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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