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Author Topic:   The God Hypothesis
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 69 of 150 (690528)
02-14-2013 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Spiritual Anarchist
02-10-2013 4:36 PM


Re: The Free Lunch Fallacy
I bring this up because I do not think that ID has a proper understanding of "Intelligence" in the Universe. The ID debate is about Intelligence for a reason. To the ID proponent Intelligence must mean a conscious entity that can reason and make decisions. Most importantly their God Hypothesis rest on a sentient being that can plan.
The ID people are off track since Intelligence is the ability to understand Reality, not to manufacture it.
That an intelligence can understand the creation does not infer that the possessor of said Intelligence has any clue in regard to designing the creation.
Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another.
Intelligence equates to a knowledge of what is True, it could even perhaps be said to be a measure of Truth available to the possessor of some quantity of intelligence.
If we are clear on this, then Intelligence is more the reflection or image in the mind of reality, to a certain degree, the perfection of which is the ideal Truth.
But Truth is not dependent upon a possessor, and truth exists independent of intelligence which might accept and correspond with it.
Truth is born in the wake of the ever unfolding next frame if Reality which sires the Truth that describes it.
The relationship between Truth and Reality is akin to father and son.
What seems to create the future is the interacting forces of the web of Natural Laws, all subject to some Law of Probability that determines the next outcome of Reality that lasts micro seconds until the next.
This is the creator, not the intelligent witness to those outcomes.

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 Message 64 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 02-10-2013 4:36 PM Spiritual Anarchist has not replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 70 of 150 (690530)
02-14-2013 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
02-10-2013 11:42 PM


Re: All wrong?
If the universe is aware, what does that imply for all the 40,000+ world's religions?
It would seem to me that they've all got it wrong! Every last one of them.
I think they all have it wrong, but so do those who say the universe is aware.
It is living things that are aware.
These life forms contain sensory organs that make them aware of the facts of life, and by the grace of such evolutionary benefits to them, aid in their singular purpose which is to merely survive.
In complex animals, the awareness that focused those species on environment situations that present opportunity for free willed choices as a response to Fear, where the life form could elect to fight or flee, awareness appeared in a conscious form.
These animal experienced at first a millisecond of free choice, but over time, were granted longer durations and more time to decide.
In this age, man has appeared with a 24 hour, 7days duration of awareness designed as a time to plan against the forces of a reality seen evermore full of intrigues and threats against his survival.
Is this state of mind we call Consciousness that is now aware of the Reality that exists as almighty. We are aware that this companion to our existence both nurtures and threatens us if we do not adapt to its changes and obey its Natural Laws.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 71 of 150 (690534)
02-14-2013 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Spiritual Anarchist
02-03-2013 1:09 PM


Re: Dualism
To me the only problem of Dualism in understanding reality is in accepting the Dualistic concept(s) of reality.
The problem is conceptual thinking itself. Conceptual thinking leads to paradox because paradox is the only way for dualistic mind to escape it's own trap of "the other" .
Triadism makes sense, not dualism.
Between the mind and the "other," i.e. Reality, there lies the Truth.
Truth as access to the mind through the seven senses.
By means of the Scientific Method man now has been able to discern Truth and differentiate it from lies, fantasy, and super-naturalism.
What now is the case is that man can and has been imaging this "other entity" that co-exists with us, Reality, itself. The image is Truth, modelling mentally the Reality external to itself, and even explaining itself, the mind.
The triad relationship is that Truth mediates between Reality and Mind.
This existence, within which we are trapped upon birth, both nurtures and threatens us. It is both friend and foe. But it is also almighty and master over us. Only by the grace of Truth unfolding in the wake of the ever changing next frame of Reality can man hope to survive by adapting indefinitely to this lord over us.
Monotheism is not far off the mark if the force behind the unfolding of the next frame of Reality is what the Bible calls God, and Truth then is our messiah and savior from the quirks of unrelenting change.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 75 of 150 (691491)
02-22-2013 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Straggler
02-20-2013 1:15 PM


Re: Dualism
Feel free to add whatever equivalences you are proposing to the head to head table above.
It's easy to suggest vague correlations in paragraphs of prose but much more difficult to specify actual one to one comparisons that support this notion that Quantum-Mechanics-as-described-by-physicists and Buddhism are significantly similar.
It was actually Murray Gell-Mann, the famous scientist, who compared his explanation for the fundamental relationship between the elemetal particles that :create" the material unverse and the Buddhist concept of the Eightfold Way,...
In the 50's physicists were faced with a confusing, and still growing multitude of particles. By introducing new quantum numbers, it was clear that this particle zoo exhibited some kind of pattern.
Murray Gell-Mann realized the particles could be classified using the mathematics of Lie-groups.
n 1969, Professor Gell-Mann received the Nobel Prize in physics for his work on the theory of elementary particles.
Professor Gell-Mann's "eightfold way" theory brought order to the chaos created by the discovery of some 100 particles in the atom's nucleus.
Then he found that all of those particles, including the neutron and proton, are composed of fundamental building blocks that he named "quarks."
The quarks are permanently confined by forces coming from the exchange of "gluons."
He and others later constructed the quantum field theory of quarks and gluons, called "quantum chromodynamics," which seems to account for all the nuclear particles and their strong interactions."

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 77 of 150 (691761)
02-25-2013 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Straggler
02-25-2013 6:03 AM


Re: Dualism
Personally I see little similarity between the Buddhist eightfold path and Gellman's eightfold way beyond both seeking to tell us something about reality and Gellman's playful use of phraseology.
But feel free to highlight further similarities if you think there are any.
Of course you don't see beyond the enumeration and emphasis of the number 8.
For you, Gellman was just noting the enumerations are similar.
But Gellman was saying "as above, so below," sensing that the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own "elemental atomism" (?), referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.
Hence we see other physicists linking Human Consciousness to Quantum effects, and expanding upon Gellman with books like "The Tao of Physics," etc.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 79 of 150 (692007)
02-27-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
02-25-2013 11:28 AM


...appeals to each other's authority...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His Eightfold Way, which he named ironically after the Buddhist path to nirvana, draws sub-atomic particles together in a pattern akin to Mendeleev's Periodic Table of Elements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link
But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Gell-man was doing as you are asserting (namely concluding that "the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own elemental atomism referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.")
That would make him a substance dualist wouldn't it? Now whether Gell-man is a substance dualist or not is irrelevant to the defensibility of substance duality is a proposition isn't it?
So what is your point?
Well, let's say that the assumptions, that Gellman was being ironic, as some writers infer he was,...
...then, his dualism is at least as relevant as what Cavediver has to say,... which is to merely pay lip service to his already decidedly bias and closed mindedness on this discussion.
The Physicist who wrote Tao of Physics must speak for his own defense against laymen who assert that what they say is "pop-science accounts of the quantum nature of the Universe."
But what I see is Gellman subtly, perhaps subconsciously, recognizing something at work inside the mind which is elemental to what he is recognizing externally in the real world. He seems to sense a metaphysical inference to a pattern which is revealing itself in both.
That he organizes the Elemental Particles from which the twelve Families of the Chemical Elements appeared, he establishes a very similar pattern in both cases that may have influenced his comments.
We see in the study of AI, that psychologists like Guilford have also been interested in this Pattern.
Guilford explored the scope of the adult intellect by providing the concept of intelligence with a strong, comprehensive theoretical backing.
The Structure-of-Intellect model (SI model) was designed as a cross classification system with intersections in the model providing the basis for abilities similar to periodic table in chemistry.
In other words, the religious ideas ponder the working of the mind, within, while science organizes the external world in ways which mirror a repetitious pattern to the temple of our intelligence.
I can not here present an argument for the things which would support Gellman's unconscious Freudian slips, be that what they were, but when we see that Gellman's work leads us to an analogous Chart of the Elemental Particles, one corresponding to the same derived by Mendeleev, at least suspicions ought arise that their is some metaphysical, if not religious, connection to QM.
This chart above was constructed before the Higgs paricle physics was even hypothesized, and some of the Bosons hve been re-defined or more clearly described and experimental observed since.
But the general pattern illustrates how piece by piece, unaware of the pattern suggested here, scientists have been "filling in the spaces" that MUST(?) be filled in before we have The Truth.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 81 of 150 (692277)
03-01-2013 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
02-27-2013 4:28 PM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
That both modern science and Buddhism conclude that things are ordered in recognisable patterns is hardly a great revelation or cause for wonderment at the startling similarities between the two.
I mean what is the alternative? To conclude that things are entirely random with no discernible patterns at all? You only have to watch the Sun rise each day to conclude "patterns". You don't need quantum theory.
That would all probably be true.
Unless Religion was actually telling us that only one special kind of Pattern exists by which man recognizes what is True about the Reality he inquires about.
And, it would be equally important is Gellman had given Buddhism too much credit for the pattern he saw emerging, and Judaism too little:

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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Eli, posted 03-02-2013 12:18 AM kofh2u has replied
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 84 of 150 (692376)
03-02-2013 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2013 4:03 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
If that was what religion was actually telling us, then religion might as well have told us "nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!" Because that would have been equally enlightening.
It seems that what religion tells "us" is so obscure that you are the first person ever to figure out what it tells us. Either I should say hooray for you! ... or ... maybe you are not the first prophet designated by God to tell us what his scriptures really mean. Maybe you're just another guy.
1) The reason that the religious people killed all the prophets was that what they said had never been said before without the generation which heard it also killing them, (and now even you "science savvy" people?).
2) What I posted, however, is not my observation entirely.
I do observe that there is a connection to these ideas when Graphically Organized.
That connection does seem to support the hypothesis that there is a Pattern which re-occurs again and again as men organize, order, and establish whole over views of various studies and topics.
3) The people who have said this long before myself were called Kabbalist.
They we Jews, and in most cases as far as I understand, very religious and theologically knowledgeable people. But what they were studying and researching apparently was focused on this idea, here.
4) The point of this Pattern is that it implies that there is a required (and also validating) organization to everything man conceives, or is able to conceive, in regard to the external world and his own ability to model that world inside his head.
5) ...and there is evidence that this can be re-discovered in the Bible where various hints and geometries were used to incorporate this Kabbalah into scripture.
In those Jewish scriptures there is a reference to the Urim and Thummim, [Ex 28:30].
Though long lost to the religious community, and most certainly never searched for, even vehemently impeded and suppressed, the same religious community has carried forward the Bible wherein the prophets of Kabbalah have re-discovered it again and again.
6) In regard to ""nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!"
Isaiah had a response that anticipated such a reaction which I am sure always confronted those Kabbalist of earlier times in an angry protest against them.
The "crime" of having an original thought which fired up the jealousy of smart people more prone to criticism and an authoritative use of their Establishments to keep "newbies" out said stuff like, "Sav, lasav, kav, lakav, seer shem."
13 Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them [merely monotonous repeatings of]:
precept upon precept, (sav), precept upon precept, (lasav), rule upon rule, (kav), rule upon rule; (lakav), here a little, (seer), there a little, (shem)....
that they may go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken.
Or simply,...
Isaiah 28:13
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
13 The Lord speaks utter nonsense to them.
That is why they will fall backwards.
That is why they will be hurt, trapped, and captured.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 85 of 150 (692377)
03-02-2013 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Eli
03-02-2013 12:18 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
You need to brush up on your aleph beth a little better.
Looks like you are arbitrarily assigning letters to names and to doubles and mothers with no rhyme or reason.
The three mothers are Aleph, then Shin and Mem.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 89 of 150 (692452)
03-03-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
03-02-2013 12:16 PM


Intelligence IS Truth
kofh2u writes:
Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another.
Ringo:
Intelligence is the measure of one's ability to operate within the system.
If God is "Truth", then God is irrelevant.
Measuring Intelligence is called IQ, which is established ONLY by measuring whether the responses sre true, not contingent upon any system at all.
The correspondence between Reality and what one says is true must not be false to count towards the measure of Intelligence.
Intelligence is Truth, expressed or demonstrated in the thinking of someone.

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 Message 86 by ringo, posted 03-02-2013 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 91 of 150 (692589)
03-05-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
03-05-2013 11:13 AM


Re: Intelligence IS Truth
You have that backwards. "True" is only true within a given system. That's why black people tend to score poorly on "white" IQ tests - because what's "true" in the white culture is not necessarily true in theirs.
My claim remains that it is you who are backwards in every post because it is you who are wrongm, but who believes there is nothing soi sharply clear that a little argument can not cloud it up.
Not every IQ Test is written.
And such Tests that do not effectively measusre what is the True responses that one might make to them just fail to discern the Intelligence that exists.
You own example of a marroned island make my point quite well.
The puzzle of learnuing to exist presents the "questions" which will measure how intelligent the survivor/dead man was.
The movie Pi is a good example here.

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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 93 of 150 (692601)
03-05-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Straggler
03-05-2013 12:12 PM


... on topic...
But what does any of this have to do with the topic of there being some sort of startling equivalence between concepts in Buddhism and those of modern physics?
I think it could not be avoided on a thread titled, "The God Hypothesis," since Christian said, "I am the truth, the way, and the life?"
The argument that Gell-mann suggested a connection with religion also tends to bring us to examine how that might be intuitively suggested to him, though he assumed it was akin to Buddhism.
But, if our God is Truth, as certainky our species seems to have been bowing down to it, then the Father of all Truth is the ever unfolding Reality which sires it in every Frame into the future.
So, in this sense, The God Hypothesis is that Truth is our light into the world through the Science of Empiricism.
But, it is also interesting to the theologian that Intuition has discovered a Pattern to our thinking which scripture also brings to our attention, in regard to the way the "tabernacle" where we meet this "god," or Truth resides:

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 95 of 150 (692606)
03-05-2013 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
02-25-2013 11:28 AM


...ironic or subtle religious association...?
Really? Was he? Where are you getting that from? I have read that Gell-Man's reference to Buddhism was intended as ironic.
Hmmm...
The better insight that Gell-mann might have referred us to would have been the Jewish recognition of this pattern which the later Kabbalists used to represent their arrangement of the Great Name.
Perhaps Gell-mann was subtly referring o Judaism since he no doubt had a subliminal memory of having had seen this arrangement before, albeit, upside down?

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 99 of 150 (692655)
03-06-2013 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Straggler
03-06-2013 6:45 AM


Kof writes:
The argument that Gell-mann suggested a connection with religion......
Strang:
What connection with religion are you suggesting?
The one which Gell-mann referred to..?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 102 of 150 (692691)
03-06-2013 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by kofh2u
03-06-2013 10:22 AM


The God Hypothesis...?
E8 Lie algebra groups represent the best developed theory of continuous symmetry of mathematical objects and structures, which makes them indispensable tools for many parts of contemporary mathematics, as well as for modern theoretical physics. They provide a natural framework for analysing the continuous symmetries of differential equations.
Many times we recognize that the physical world can be described by the mathematical/logical intelligence inherent as one of our multiple intelligences.
We use Logical/Mathematical Intelligence to understand the external world.
Usually, we obeserve the external world and then develop the mathematics.
What we see in the case of Gellmann is that the opposite or reverse condition prevailed.
He used the inherent presence of this Mathematical Intelligence in order to better observe the external world.
This triangulation of the physical conceptions we observe has been noted by others over the ages.
In ancient times all of matter was assigned to the four elements. We now know most matter is baryonic matter. And we now know that the numbers of the particles of baryonic matter form a Tetractys!
"
The Tetractys represented the organization of space:
1. the first row represented zero-dimensions (a point)
2. the second row represented one-dimension (a line of two points)
3. the third row represented two-dimensions (a plane defined by a triangle of three points)
4. the fourth row represented three-dimensions (a tetrahedron defined by four points)
Recall that the first four planes of existence: space-time, subatomic particles, atoms and molecules can each be symbolized by a point, line, triangle and tetrahedron. Again, this is an example of how the smallest part contains the whole."
Spirituality, Dreams and Prophecy: The Universal Order of Design - the symmetry of matter
The Kabbahists (to whom I referred, in that illustration of the whole pattern that seems to be required of us as organize our concept of the Real World such as in Chemistry and now Elemental Particle Physics) also expressed "the creator of the material world" this way:
Buck Fuller called this symbol "Truth:"
Then Christ in 32AD tells us he "is the Truth, the way, and the life."
He also says that even the hairs on our head are numbered.
What we are seeing in QM today is supporting evidence for this God Hypothesis that was suggested by the OP of this thread.

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