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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 196 of 383 (690351)
02-12-2013 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 8:18 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
Paul really believes the whole, "this generation shall not pass away" stuff. Too bad he was disappointed.
There is no need to paint Paul as dejected or depressed towards the end of his ministry because he closes his life quite positively.
"For I am already being poured out, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also those how have loved His appearing." ( 2 Timothy 4:6-8)
I detect no disappointment but rather enthusiasm.
He sounds like a long distance runner coming across the finish line triumphantly.
Paul was soberminded and not giddy nor naive. He may have wanted to see the age consummate in his lifetime. But his realism did not allow the preference to hamper his labors to obviously prepare the Christian church for the long haul through time.
For example, he cautions the Thessalonians not to be irresponsible about their obligations in this world merely because the second coming of Christ may be immenient.
Also, Paul speaks of "the later times" in his faithfulness to the speaking Holy Spirit -
"But the Spirit says expressly that in the later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons .... etc." (1 Tim. 4:1)
Whatever understandable preference Paul had for a soon to be second coming of Christ, it did not hamper him from preparing those under his charge for the long haul.
Personal dejection, personal depression that he is going to die before he sees Christ coming on the clouds is nowhere found in Paul's letters.
Besides, I think you are misunderstanding even the intention of Jesus in the passage you alluded to.
"Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John ... And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with Him." (Matt. 16:28-17:3)
I think some people read "who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" but mentally they insert this "the Son of Man in His second coming".
The whole matter of a man with God concealed within the shell of His humanity briefly allowing Himself to be "unzipped" as it were. That is letting the inward hidden splendour of divine glory burst through the shell of His concealing humanity, albeit temporarily, must be what He meant by SOME disciples seeing the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
All the evangelists who record the incedent place the transfiguration immediately following these words of promise of Christ.
It is really another discussion. But I think you can discard the depressed and disappointed Paul as probably largely skeptic's hype.
More could be said. That is all the time I have right now.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 8:18 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Jazzns, posted 02-12-2013 10:01 AM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 197 of 383 (690352)
02-12-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
02-12-2013 9:00 AM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
It is really another discussion. But I think you can discard the depressed and disappointed Paul as probably largely skeptic's hype.
Why must you continually respond to the minutia of my posts rather than the main content?
Richh keeps bringing up quotes from Paul about the proper behavior of slaves in order to try to salvage Paul's contradiction or immoral advice to masters in Ephesians. This discussion of the second coming is was in relation to his quote from Corinthians where Paul is telling slaves to "hang tight" so to speak. My point is supported by my follow-up quote from Corinthians but it does not rely only on it.
Did you not get that gist from reading the whole post?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 02-12-2013 9:00 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jaywill, posted 02-12-2013 10:48 AM Jazzns has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 198 of 383 (690357)
02-12-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jazzns
02-12-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
Why must you continually respond to the minutia of my posts rather than the main content?
Richh keeps bringing up quotes from Paul about the proper behavior of slaves in order to try to salvage Paul's contradiction or immoral advice to masters in Ephesians. This discussion of the second coming is was in relation to his quote from Corinthians where Paul is telling slaves to "hang tight" so to speak. My point is supported by my follow-up quote from Corinthians but it does not rely only on it.
Did you not get that gist from reading the whole post?
Jazzns, my time is constrained today.
I addressed that portion of your last post which struck my interest. I realize that you still want to talk a lot more about the slavery issue.
I understand your main points. As I see them they are this:
1.) Philemon and Ephesians are likely not written by the same person.
2.) Ephesians does not rise to level of moral perfection as Philemon.
3.) Paul is actually endorsing slavery in Ephesians.
4.) It is not a matter of your (Jazzns's) desire the Ephesian Paul act as a social reformer.
Now for my part, you'll probably get a sensation of me wanting to move on to other points of discussion in our going through Ephesians. You may find me kind of gravitating towards additional points. You may find be kind urging discussion of other concepts.
I genuinely think some of your points are well argued. Up to a certain point I'll probably just acknowledge that we differ in our opinions. You're welcomed to have another view about what I believe.
Evidence is not persuasion. I hear you - "You have not yet persuaded me." I got it. Okay.
I just want to think about some of the additional things you wrote at this point and try to nudge the exchanges on other matters. Ephesians has a lot of things in it besiddes exhortations to wives, husbands, children, slaves, masters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jazzns, posted 02-12-2013 10:01 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Jazzns, posted 02-12-2013 11:49 AM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 199 of 383 (690373)
02-12-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by jaywill
02-12-2013 10:48 AM


Seeking understanding of each other's position...
I understand your desire to move on to other topics in Ephesians. I wouldn't mind seeking to a conclusion of this line of debate myself. If nothing else I would like a response to message 188 Message 188 where I am simply asking if you could validate my understanding of your position on authority. I want to make sure that I am not replying to a misinterpretation of your argument.

If you don't want to continue on these points, that is fine. Let me just try to clarify your characterization of my position and then if you like we can simply let the record stand. I decided to handle these in reverse.
4.) It is not a matter of your (Jazzns's) desire the Ephesian Paul act as a social reformer.
I have clarified this multiple times now. That you still have this misunderstanding seems strange. I don't desire Paul to do anything. I am simply noticing that he is being inconsistent with himself or if he is not, then he falls short of an enduring moral. I don't have a problem with Paul being a creature of his time and culture and this writing simply being a reflection of that. But that makes it far from the enduring word of God. My position really isn't that complicated.
3.) Paul is actually endorsing slavery in Ephesians.
Perhaps endorsing is a strong word, but rather failing to stigmatize it when Christians are the ones owning the slaves it AS HE HAD PREVIOUSLY. It is similarly inconsistent with the behavior of the early church according to Acts.
2.) Ephesians does not rise to level of moral perfection as Philemon.
Its obvious that it does not on this point.
1.) Philemon and Ephesians are likely not written by the same person.
This is one single piece of evidence among many that help address the issue of the authenticity of Ephesians. I have also said before that in the grand scheme of things, Ephesians is on the bubble. It is possible that Paul wrote it but it is also unlikely. I am happy enough to live in this gray area but I understand that Christians who revere the Bible would not be.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jaywill, posted 02-12-2013 10:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2013 4:07 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 200 of 383 (690433)
02-13-2013 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Jazzns
02-12-2013 11:49 AM


Re: Seeking understanding of each other's position...
I am not sure how important it is that I agree or disagree with this. Let me just see if I understand this and I'll ask you to respond if my characterization is inaccurate. If this is an accurate summary of what you are saying then I may have more to comment on it.
1. Both Paul and Jesus, in other places, talk about submission to authority.
2. The husband is an authority to the wife on the basis that SHE accepts his desire for her to be his wife.
3. Because of this acceptance, the edicts about submission from step 1 apply and THAT is what makes Ephesians 5
concordant with Jesus and Paul elsewhere.
Did I characterize that appropriatly? I am honestly just trying to reflect this back to make sure we have the same understanding of your point.
In the next probably few posts of mine, I am going to touch on some additional crucial aspects of the book of Ephesians. Embedded within the posts will be words intended to address the direct questions possed by Jazzns above.
In this way readers are going to have to be on the lookout to find out how I have specifically answered the request for comment above. In this way those of us who want to move on to more of Ephesians will get something more. I think the wise reader will try to understand how my replies to Jazzns questions are related to the additional studies. There will be a relationship.
I suspect that Jazzns will have the sensation of being told a lot of things that were not asked. But I attend that careful reading should see replies to the three matters above.
In this way we move on in our safari through Ephesians. Maybe Jazzns will not feel these three above concerns of his are being ignored completely.
I also may have a few questions on which I need help myself from other students of Ephesians.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Jazzns, posted 02-12-2013 11:49 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 201 of 383 (690434)
02-13-2013 5:21 AM


1. Both Paul and Jesus, in other places, talk about submission to authority.
In chapter one we read in the King James Version - "He might gather together in one all things in Christ." (1:10) I think the Recovery Version has a better translation:
" ... to head up all things in Christ ..." .
I am told that there is a verbal form of the noun "head" being used by Paul. So "to head up all things in Christ" better brings the sense out in English.
"Making known to us the mystery of His will ... which He purposed in Himself, unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him." (9a-10)
Here we see God's will is a matter of outworking a process in time. In the consummation of this time, at the climax of this time all things will be headed up in Christ. This necessarily means that all things as they exist in heaven and earth now are in some state of detachment and collapse from God's perfect governance.
The operation of God in Christ is moving from a state of disarray to a final situation of being headed up in Jesus Christ - all things in the universe.
Imagine a heap of ruined and damaged items piled up in a junk yard. Now imagine coming back some time latter and seeing a beautiful structure of fully and properly functioning items as kind of skyscrapper. All things in the ruin of collapse have been repaired and harmoniously related to the whole.
Paul's teaching is that God's good pleasure is to work His operation to head up the collapsed and ruined universe in a man - Jesus Christ as the pinnacle and head authority.
" unto the economy of the fullness of the times " means this matter is in progress and will reach a finale - a climax.
Today the world is not totally without some order. But there is abuse of order. There is abuse in many places of authority. It is a tragic fact of history -
Children can be abused by parents.
Those with wealth can abuse those without wealth.
Men abuse their wives and male chauvanism has abused females.
Going back to the junkyard example we may see in this heap of chaos that some items are higher in the heap than others. Some items are lower in the heap than others. The problem is that the entire heap is in a state of collapse in relation to what it is going to be when it is headed up into a beautiful structure.
One matter that needs repair in the collapse of the world system is the abuse of different relationships of authority and submission.
In the same chapter Paul writes - "And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him [Christ] to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (1:22,23)
Briefly, this passage shows that the Body of Christ as those who have received the life of Christ dispensed into them AND who are saturated and permeated with that life to express in a corperate way that filling One, take the lead in the universe to be headed up in CHrist. The church pioneers to come under the salvation of Christ from the ruined collapsed condition of the fallen and damaged creation.
In the book of Romans Paul writes under the reign of Caesar Nero a terrible persecutor of the Christian church. Many scholars traditionally hold that Nero was the Roman emporer who had Paul killed.
Yet Paul writes in Romans, the basic Pauline outline of the Christian faith that all governors are ordained by God. The entire 13th chapter must be read to get the full impact of these surprising words. Here are a few examples:
"Let every person be subject to the authorities over [him], for there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are ordained by God." (Romans 13:1)
Full stop. "Excuse us Paul? The Roman Emporer Ceasar Nero is a God ordained authority to whom the Christians should submit !?! Do you mean the Christians should renounce their "atheism" for not worshipping the many gods of the Roman pantheon? Do you mean they should denounce Jesus the Son of God and claim Ceasar Nero as their only King and god?"
It is difficult to write a brief word on this paradox.
It is difficult to adaquately explain this on a forum posting of average word length.
Briefly - Paul is not endorsing the abuse of authority.
Paul is not reasoning that the junkyard of the collapsed creation and world governments are the perfect will of God. Neither could it be possible that Paul is teaching the Christian church to obey Ceasar Nero in each and every eddict designed to obliterate the Gospel of Christ and force universal worship of Roman citizens to the gods of Roman religion. Paul is not demanding denial of believing in Jesus the Son of God in favor of Nero worship.
Briefly - Paul is teaching that insubordination, revolt, disregard for order, despising of human government per se should not be a blemish on Christian character during this process in which God is heading up all things under Christ.
The same thought might be reflected in the words of Jesus in His message on the mountain -
"Blessed are the meek , for they shall inherit the earth." (Matt. 5:5)
Continued latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 202 of 383 (690435)
02-13-2013 7:07 AM


1. Both Paul and Jesus, in other places, talk about submission to authority.
Ephesians 1:10 and Ephesians 1:22,23 are very related to each other. The first verse shows God is moving in time to a climax of placing all the universe under the headship of a man, a Godman - Jesus Christ. The second verse show that this Godman has a collective Body. And this Body of those indwelt with Christ share in this climactic heading up of the universe in Christ.
They pioneer in taking the lead to be headed up by the Christ that is living in them. And they participate in the heading up of all things at the conclusion of history. Here are the two passages:
" Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him." (1:10)
"And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (1:22,23)
Now a tree is not a part of the Body of Christ.
A star, a planet, or things on a planet like a lion, a gerbil, a bushbuck, a turnip, a willow tree are strictly also not a part of the Body of Christ.
Those who have not received Christ are also not a part of the mystical Body of Christ for the life of Christ has not (or not yet) been dispensed into their beings).
In the age following the second coming of Christ many peoples who survive this age and are transfered into the next age will also not be a part of the Body of Christ. The bears, lions, sheep, snakes, and some nations surviving the great tribulation and the second coming of Christ will all not be a part of the Body of Christ.
But all these things strictly speaking outside of Christ's Body will be headed up in Christ. This thought may be reflected in Jesus words after His resurrection -
"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth. Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..." (Matt. 28:18,19a)
In other words all authority has been given to Christ. His disciples should go and immerse people into Himself; into the Triune God for the expansion of His mystical Body. Into the name (the singular name) really means into the Person. Bring people into the Person of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
The bear and lion are brought into a heading up in Christ in the coming age. We see that in Isaiah 11 the lion and the sheep will be able to peacefully hang around together without the sheep being gobbled up by the lion.
Ie. "And the wolf will dwell with the lamb; and the leopard will lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a young boy will lead them.
The cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox." (Isaiah 11:6,7)
Somehow the heading up of all things in Christ will cause these carniverous animals to be transformed to be able to dwell together peacefully.
On a larger scale, not only lion, sheep, and bear are headed up but the entire creation awaits the maturity of Christ's purpose. Paul writes this in Romans.
"For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity ... In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (See Romans 8:18-23)
The Body will include those with the life of Christ dispensed into them as the Holy Spirit. These are the sons of God. Creation awaits their growth into maturity. The breaking forth of their freedom will also be the breaking forth of the creation from the slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
This is a brief word.
The mystical Body takes the lead to be headed up in Christ. The church in creation pioneers the coming under the headship of Christ.
The mystical Body of Christ also participates in the heading up of all things with Christ her Head. The King is not just the Head, but the Head WITH the Body. Christ is not only the Head, but also the Body. This is proved by Paul's word in First Corinthians 12:12:
"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (1 Cor. 12:12 RcV)
The Body of Christ has many members. The individual human being into whom the Spirit of Christ has come. Christ is the Head of all these members. But the Head along with all the members is the corporate Christ - "THE Christ".
The Head is Christ the One Godman Lord - the unique Lord and Savior as God's Son. The aggregate of the believers is the Body. And the Head and the Body toggether make up the corporate Christ.
" ... yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." . It may be recalled that when Paul was persecuting the believers on earth, Jesus spoke to him from heaven saying - "Saul, Saul, Why do you persecute Me?"
If I smack you on your arm. You may say "Hey, do not hit my arm!" But you would also be justified to say "Hey, do not hit ME!"
If I argued and say "But I did not hit you. I only hit your arm." You might say "When you hit my arm you hit ME dude. Stop hitting ME !!"
The dusty, imperfect, growing, often naughty, immature with the more mature with the retarded in maturity Christians that Paul was persecuting were THE Christ. The "Me" of Jesus as the Head and the Body together.
The Body, of course as all of Ephesians testifies, must be BUILT up. She does not emmerge into existence in maturity. She grows into maturity. And ALL members do not arrive at maturity at the same time necessarily. For Paul says -
"until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we may be no longer children ..." (See Ephesians 4:13,14)
Briefly - The saved believers are the Body of the Head, and participate in the heading up over all things in Christ. This is why the words "head over all things TO the church" imply a kind of transmission of Christ's authority on "to the church".
" ... gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His Body ..." (Eph. 1:22a,23)
In Romans we see the creation awaiting the maturity of the son of God. In Ephesians we see the growth of the Body into a full grown man, the constituents no longer being children.
We see the power bringing spiritual children into mature inheriting sons of God being the same power the raised Christ from the dead. It is operating in the members of the Body of His believers -
"And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies far above all rule and authority and power and lordship ... not only in this age but also in that which is to come." (See 1:19-21)
Paul's concept then is that the church is under nothing but Christ Himself for it is His Body headed up by Himself as the Head. As such the Body is both being headed up and participating in the heading up as co-reigners. Christ is the head over all things TO the church which is His Body.
Christ is full in Himself of course. Christ is in the Body but needs to grow to be the fullness of the Body - filling all in all. Christ in the church must become every member in every part in everything. That is the expanding and permeating Christ. That is the saturating and filling Christ thoroughly blending Himself into the souls of the saved.
All will eventually arrive. Paul includes himself in the all. He does not say "until you all arrive" but "until WE all arrive".
Here Paul speaks of the growth of the Body -
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (4:15,16)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Jazzns, posted 02-14-2013 10:42 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 203 of 383 (690520)
02-13-2013 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 8:18 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
You aren't dealing with the contradiction AND you aren't dealing with the immorality.
I don't think Paul contradicts himself. I don't believe he was immoral either, but that is not my subject here and I have said quite a bit about that previously.
Philemon, Colossians and Ephesians look like they were all written about the same time based on the notices at the end of each. Also Colossians and Ephesians are clearly sister books - they complement each other and amplify each other. I think Paul's attitude in each was the same. The epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon were both sent to the church in Colossae where Philemon lived and whence Onesimus fled and was returning. Paul gives the same charge in Colossians regarding slaves and masters as he give in Ephesians. But since we are talking about masters here...
Colossians 4:1 Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.
What do the words "but more than a slave, a beloved brother" mean to you. I contend that slave and brother are not mutually exclusive. That is in essence what Paul says in the verses in Galatians below.
I don't see how you can say Paul's instruction for slaves has no bearing on his instruction for masters. One needs the other; otherwise there is no issue. Maybe you think Paul's instruction to slaves was solely because (as you say) the anticipation of the immenent return of the Lord made it not worth doing anything about.
Paul really believes the whole, "this generation shall not pass away" stuff. Too bad he was disappointed.
You infer Paul's motive for writing I Cor 7. Paul did not state his motive and it can equally be taken as a general 'rule of action'. Your inference may be wrong. What in this section gives you the idea that this is a temporary injunction? It sounds like a general rule to me.
1 Corinthians 7:17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised...
ALso, Paul maintains the same position on what behavior is fitting for Christian slaves in Galatians, I Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, Titus and I Timothy - see several quotes below. Some Bible students consider Galatians to be one of Paul's earliest epistles.
His position in Galatians is probably most unique. He says that there is a place where the human distinction between slave and free man does not exist. The place is "in Christ Jesus". The Recovery version gives the subject of Philemon as "An Illustration of the Believers’ Equal Status in the New Man." That is an enlightened assessment of the significance of this epistle.
Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Titus 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
I Timothy 6:1 As many as are slaves under the yoke should regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, lest the name of God and our teaching be blasphemed.
6:2 And those who have believing masters should not despise them, because they are brothers; but rather they should serve them, because those who recompense them for the kindly service received are believers and beloved. These things teach and exhort.
Perhaps, as with you and Jaywill, we must agree to disagree.
Edited by Richh, : Minor additions
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 8:18 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2013 1:30 AM Richh has replied
 Message 207 by Jazzns, posted 02-14-2013 11:34 AM Richh has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 204 of 383 (690536)
02-14-2013 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Richh
02-13-2013 11:06 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
His position in Galatians is Probably most unique. He says that there is a place where the human distinction between slave and free man does not exist. The place is "in Christ Jesus".
Richh, how would you distinguish the difference between all things being headed up "in Christ" from the believers being "in Christ"?
Compare for example these two "in Christ" passages:
1.) "But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13)
2.) "Unto the fullness of the economy of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and things on the earth, in Him." (Eph. 1:10)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Richh, posted 02-13-2013 11:06 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Richh, posted 02-14-2013 2:15 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 205 of 383 (690540)
02-14-2013 2:48 AM


2. The husband is an authority to the wife on the basis that SHE accepts his desire for her to be his wife.
Because I am a male it is sometimes ackward for me to speak to this. Maybe it would be more acceptable to some suspicious attitudes if I were a Christian woman replying to this matter.
What I said was that I think it is usual that the marriage relationship commences with one party (the female) agreeing to go along with the will of the other party (the male) to be joined in lifelong partnership.
Are there exceptions? Yes.
Does the female always have a choice? No.
Sometimes the male may not have a choice in an arrangment made by parents of both.
So what? Does that give the right of the man to have tyranical authority over his wife? It should not indeed. And it certainly should not in the Christian marriage in which fighting for one's own authority is an ugly matter.
In my opinion the protection of the male in regards to the female is something of a matter of overseership. While a woman is caring for a child as nature has her designed to do, in principle she needs protection.
Am I wrong? Am I unreasonable to suggest this?
There is a perculiar prophecy in the book of Jeremiah where God says that He will do a new thing on the earth - a woman will encompase a man. Here are a few English translations of that passage:
(copied without permission from Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you wander, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the land--a woman will shelter a man." "Bible Site" )
quote:
New International Version (1984)
How long will you wander, O unfaithful daughter? The LORD will create a new thing on earth--a woman will surround a man."
English Standard Version (2001)
How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man.
New American Standard Bible (1995)
"How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth-- A woman will encompass a man."
Holman Christian Standard Bible (2009)
How long will you turn here and there, faithless daughter? For the LORD creates something new in the land-- a female will shelter a man.
International Standard Version (2012)
How long will you go this way and that, rebellious daughter? Indeed, the LORD will create a new thing on the earth; a woman will protect a man.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
How long will you wander around, you unfaithful people? The LORD will create something new on earth: A woman will protect a man.
King James 2000 Bible (2003)
How long will you go about, O you backsliding daughter? for the LORD has created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall protect a man.
American King James Version
How long will you go about, O you backsliding daughter? for the LORD has created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
My purpose is not to give an interpretation of this passage other than to point out that the phrase "a new thing" should signify something atypical.
In some way, God through the prophet Jeremiah, is saying a atypical, unusual, other than normally expected situation He will bring about - a woman shall encompase or protect a man.
Do I mean that the passages indicates NO women have every protected their man? Of course not. But I think one has to read into the prophecy that it would normally be expected that it would be the other way around - a man would encompass or protect his woman.
Now let me submit that this sense of encircling or encompassing is related (yet not totally defined) as having an element of authority and submission.
Why is it described as a new thing that God will do?
In my opinion had God said the new thing He would do is that a man would encompass a woman, then I would assume that the relationship of overseership is customarily reversed.
In Ephesians 5 Paul is using the husband / wife marriage to say something also about his deeper point - Christ's sanctifying and nourishing the church with love.
"Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,
That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrikle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish.
In the same way the husbands also ought to love their wives as their own bodies; he who loves his won wife loves himself. ... we (Christian believers) are members of His Body.
etc. ... This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (See 5:25-32)
The matter of Christ and the church is a part of God's eternal purpose. In creation some window into the heart of God is seen. The marriage of a man to his woman is hint of the eternal purpose in God's mind that there be a union of Christ and the church.
For this purpose, Christ sanctifies the church, nourishes, cherishes, loves, and even lays down His own life for the church. In short He encompases and protects His loving interest - the church which is His counterpart.
It should be noticed that this is before the sin of Adam that marriage is designated in this way by God -
Genesis 2:23-24 - And the man said, This time this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called Woman because out of man this one was taken.
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
Genesis 2 here is before the temptation, before the serpent, before the sin, before the fall of man, before the curse.
Paul touches on this original intention of God in his exposition of the relationship of Christ and His redeemed Body, the church -
" For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ also the church, because we are members of His Body.
For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (Eph. 5:29-32)
It should be noticed that the prophecy that the woman would be "rule[d] over" was like the thorns and thistles, a by product of the sin of Adam and his wife.
I think I understand this as a unfortunate outcome arising because of the damaged sin has brought into the world.
Compare God's words to Adam and God's word to his wife:
"And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you saying, You shall not eat of it;
Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil will you eat of it all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you ... by the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground ..." (See Gen. 3:17-19)
"To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your pain in your childbearing; in pain you will bring forth children. And your desire will be to your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen. 3:16)
God didn't say that in Genesis 2 before the fall that sweaty man should labor among the thorns and thistles in anxiety and die.
God didn't say in Genesis 2 before the fall that the child bearing woman would be ruled over by the husband she loves.
At present I take these two prophecies as God predicting what negative by-products will come about as a result of the couple joining the opposition party of the serpent against God.
Man passages in the Bible show a co-equal status of men and women / husband and wife / mother and father. But many verses show an encompassing and protecting of one on behalf of the other. And some passages reveal the ugly abuse of a fallen "ruling" of one over the other.
And as I indicated above, though I may not fully understand Jeremiah's prophecy, God also speaks of a new thing to take place in which the ironic reversal of some kind causes a woman to protect, encircle, encompass a man.
If any female is bothered by these comments I assure you that the Bible is a kind of book that somewhere steps on everyone's toes. The particular passages in Genesis may not step on my toes as a man. But there are other passages the flavor of which may be just as much a thorn to me.
Do you wish something was not written there?
I know how you feel.
Fortunately Genesis 3 is not the conclusion of the divine revelation.
And it appears that Jesus Christ taght that in the resurrection the saved will not have anything to do with men and women being married at all.
" But when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in the heavens. (Mark 12:25)
"But Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matt. 22:29,30)
A lot is left unsaid. This does not mean I am not aware of those undiscussed things.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2013 11:26 AM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 206 of 383 (690563)
02-14-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by jaywill
02-13-2013 7:07 AM


Submission to Authority
Hi jaywill,
I just wanted to write you a quick post to say thanks for responding in such a detailed way to my post.
I read and enjoyed your two posts concerning point 1 of my characterization. I don't want you to think that a lack of a detailed response to mean I haven't read it. I have but it is just that I don't think there is much more needed to discuss on this point as I agree with you.
I think it is a valid theological interpretation of the scripture to say that the bible calls for Christians to be submissive and accepting of authority. It is well in line with how the apostles behaved in acts. It makes sense given the circumstances of the early persecution of the church by the Romans. It makes sense given the behavior of Jesus (for the most part). Christians (should) buck trends and confront illegitimate authority with words and good deeds.
I think "submission" does have its limits. At what point does the equivalent of civil disobedience, clearly expressed many times in the bible, run up against this notion of submission?
I think the possibilities for discussion here are large and somewhat astray of the topic so I wouldn't mind just leaving that question as rhetorical.
I will have more to say about part 2 though when I have time to sit down with it and do it justice. I just didn't want to leave you with no feedback for part 1.
Thanks

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by jaywill, posted 02-13-2013 7:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 207 of 383 (690570)
02-14-2013 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Richh
02-13-2013 11:06 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
Perhaps, as with you and Jaywill, we must agree to disagree.
I wanted to put your last point first just to say that this is likely the outcome of many of these arguments and that is okay. I feel I have sharpened myself against you and jaywill and I hope you feel equally fulfilled. Just because there isn't a decisive end to a debate does not make it un-fruitful.
Philemon, Colossians and Ephesians look like they were all written about the same time based on the notices at the end of each. Also Colossians and Ephesians are clearly sister books - they complement each other and amplify each other. I think Paul's attitude in each was the same. The epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon were both sent to the church in Colossae where Philemon lived and whence Onesimus fled and was returning. Paul gives the same charge in Colossians regarding slaves and masters as he give in Ephesians. But since we are talking about masters here...
Colossians 4:1 Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.
I believe this is the first time someone has brought up this point of Paul supporting Ephesians 6 from his other pseudographic works. Starting off here with Colossians, this is perhaps to be expected considering how similar the letters are and many believe that these two letters have influenced each other either due to copying or from a similar source. It certainly is plausible that the same person who wrote Ephesians wrote Colossians and that would explain the similarities.
Philemon is another story. I honestly haven't taken a deep dive into the origins of Philemon. All I know of it is that it is considered authentic by scholars and it seems to make sense given that the doctrine matches well with the other undisputed works of Paul.
Using the similarity of their endings to date them does not seem valid or all that convincing even if it was. It is obvious from the other Paul forgeries that attempts were made to adhere to the legitimate Paul's style. Can you produce any other evidence for this claim that Philemon and Ephesians were written near the same time?
What do the words "but more than a slave, a beloved brother" mean to you. I contend that slave and brother are not mutually exclusive.
No they are not mutually exclusive, I did not make that claim.
But "no longer a slave" seems pretty clear to me. I notice that you did not answer that question but deflected it. His words really are quite plain. It really is hard to see why you are fighting me so hard on this point. The ENTIRE THEME of the letter clearly is Paul asking Philemon to free and accept Onesimus.
Maybe you think Paul's instruction to slaves was solely because (as you say) the anticipation of the immenent return of the Lord made it not worth doing anything about.
Yea. Pretty much.
You infer Paul's motive for writing I Cor 7. Paul did not state his motive and it can equally be taken as a general 'rule of action'. Your inference may be wrong. What in this section gives you the idea that this is a temporary injunction? It sounds like a general rule to me.
I don't think my point hinges on this. I was mostly responding to your quotation of 1 Cor. More importantly is that Paul is talking to slaves in that quote. He is saying, "hang tight better things are coming". It is not support for his advice to slave masters. Not all quotes in the bible about slavery are linked together in some harmonious chain. I know believers would like to think that these self-consistent threads exist throughout the bible but believing that they do and presenting convincing evidence that they do are not the same.
ALso, Paul maintains the same position on what behavior is fitting for Christian slaves in Galatians, I Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, Titus and I Timothy - see several quotes below. Some Bible students consider Galatians to be one of Paul's earliest epistles.
It likely is his first epistle yes and thus more likely to be legitimate.
His position in Galatians is Probably most unique. He says that there is a place where the human distinction between slave and free man does not exist. The place is "in Christ Jesus". The Recovery version gives the subject of Philemon as "An Illustration of the Believers Equal Status in the New Man." That is an enlightened assessment of the significance of this epistle.
Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew
nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Right! How again do you see this as in concordance with Ephesians? Ephesians claims that there IS A DIFFERENCE between slaves and free men, male and female. I haven't had time to dig out quotes to specifically how original Paul contradicts himself in Ephesians but I didn't really need to. You and jaywill have done it for me brilliantly!
Titus 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
I Timothy 6:1 As many as are slaves under the yoke should regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, lest the name of God and our teaching be blasphemed. 6:2 And those who have believing masters should not despise them, because they are brothers; but rather they should serve them, because those who recompense them for the kindly service received are believers and beloved. These things teach and exhort.
The Pastoral Epistles (1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) are second only to Revelations as the most awful and most obviously forged books of the New Testament. I would love to take this up in another thread if you are interested.
But the main thing to notice here is the same as I mentioned for Colossians. These are on the other side of the divide between the works of Paul and so it is unsurprising that they support Ephesians in this regard. The later works of Paul are very much more concerned with the earthly order of things, keeping slaves and women in their place, making a church leadership heriarchy, etc.
Original Paul was much more interested in keeping spiritual matters in order.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Richh, posted 02-13-2013 11:06 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2013 7:07 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 219 by Richh, posted 02-18-2013 8:04 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 208 of 383 (690597)
02-14-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by jaywill
02-14-2013 1:30 AM


"Headed up in Christ" and "in Christ"
Richh, how would you distinguish the difference between all things being headed up "in Christ" from the believers being "in Christ"?
Compare for example these two "in Christ" passages:
1.) "But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13)
2.) "Unto the fullness of the economy of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and things on the earth, in Him." (Eph. 1:10)
First let me say I will begin an answer but I'm not sure how completely I can answer this.
Phrases like 'in Christ' and 'through Christ' are used extensively in Paul's epistles. I'll have to see if I can do a frequency chart in my Bible tool. I haven't tried this, but I believe it can do this. I think it would be useful to look at.
To start, the word anakephalaiosasthai in Greek, translated 'to head up', has the prefix 'ana', meaning 'again'. I think that is sweet. At one time all things were all 'headed up' in Christ, then something happened in the universe and things got out of whack, but eventually all things in the heavens and on the earth will again be 'headed up' in Christ. Paul notes this to be the destination - 'Unto the economy of the fullness of the times', God's destination
I found the following quote from the Weymouth translation in the 26 Translation NT. I think it actually captures some of the meanings of this passage that are hard to understand in other translations. It also has the idea of 'restoring' implied by the prefix 'ava'.
For a government of the world when the times are ripe for it - the purpose of which He cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ...
It is hard to translate the Greek word which is translated 'economy'. Economy is actually a transliteration of the Greek word. 'Government' seems reasonable here in Weymouth's translation. I like Westcott's note:
The exact meaning which it (oikonomiav) conveys appears to be in each case (Lk 16:2; I Cor 9:17; Col 1:25; I Tim 1:4; Eph 3:2,9) that of a distribution of divine treasures, which have been committed to chosen representatives, that they may be faithfully administrated by them...The act of dispensation passes naturally into the scheme of dispensation.
I also like going into passages like this word by word. The phrase 'fullness of the times' is interesting. It is different from 'the fullness of time' in Gal 4:4. I will forego a comment on that here. There are two occurrences of 'economy' the noun in Ephesians. The first is in Eph 1:10 and the second is:
Eph3:9 And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been chidden in God, who created all things,
This verse speaks of 'the economy of the mystery' not of 'the economy of the fullness of the times'. I believe this is the present dispensation, distribution and administration of the 'divine treasures'. I believe this economy takes place in Christ. See my post EvC Forum: Have You Ever Read Ephesians?. The result, the issue of 'the economy of the mystery' for us today is that we are gradually 'headed up in Christ' experientially, and more and more in reality. This would take a lot more space to cover.
And 'in Christ' does not end. Perhaps this is part of 'the economy of the fullness of the times'.
Ephesians2:7 That He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2013 1:30 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2013 1:35 AM Richh has replied
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 02-15-2013 9:08 AM Richh has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 209 of 383 (690642)
02-14-2013 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Jazzns
02-14-2013 11:34 AM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
The later works of Paul are very much more concerned with the earthly order of things, keeping slaves and women in their place, making a church leadership heriarchy, etc.
Original Paul was much more interested in keeping spiritual matters in order.
So the "latter Paul" of the book of Ephesians is more interested in making a hierarchy ?
Ephesians is very much devoted to describing the church as a living organism rather than a heirarchical worldly organization. For this reason the church in Ephesians is living Body with joints as an "organic" entity of spiritual life.
"Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (4:16)
This Body builds itself up in love through the divine life of Christ flowing out through every single member - "through the operation in the measure of each one part"
This is a long way from encouraging a passive laity under a formal clerical heirarchy. There are no "professional" spiritual mediators doing all the work of building up the church for everyone else as if they alone are qualified to do so.
Years ago it was pointed out to me that verse 11 should be understood as the apostles and prophets perfecting the saints to do the work of the ministry.
Darby's New Translation has Ephesians 4:11-12 -
quote:
" ... and he [Christ] has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ ..." (4:11-14)
Darby's note explains that "with a view" indicates what is in the intention in the mind of the person. The apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers (one serving one performing two functions) are perfecting the saints (all believers) with the intention that the saints carry on the work of ministry and build up the body of Christ.
This is not heirarchy usurping the function of all the saints who are passively unqualified subjects. It is the body which builds itself up in love through the operation in the measure of EACH one part (v.16)
The Recovery Version eliminates the supplied semicolon altogether in verse 11 and makes this clearer
"And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all arrive ... etc."
The persons as gifts labor to perfect all the saints to do the work of ministry. Essentially they perfect others to do what they themselves do.
Footnotes 12(3,4) in the RcV read -
quote:
"The many gifted persons in the preceding verse have only one ministry, that is, to minister Christ for the building up of the Body of Christ, the church. This is the unique ministry in the New Testament economy (2 Cor. 4:1; 1 Tim. 1:12)
According to the grammatical construction, the building up of the Body of Christ is the work of the ministry. Whatever the gifted persons in v. 11 do as the work of the ministry must be for the building up of the Body of Christ. However, this building up is not accomplished directly by the gifted ones but by the saints who have been perfected by the gifted ones."
Paul in Ephesians is concerned with the living function of all the members of the church as an organic Body rather than a formal organized heirarchy smothering the majority of believers into laymen's passivity.
Hierarchy stifles the universal priesthood of the believers and paralyzes the corporate Body. The building up of the Body BY the Body through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the Body'sa growth hence also its building up.
In a sense we are making too much of the Apostle Paul. The apostle is reflecting only what is on the heart of Jesus Christ. And in Second Ephesians ( the epistle to Ephesus in Revelation 2) Christ speaks of how He hates the work of the conquerors of the common people to cause a hierarchy. These ones are called the Nicolaitans - conquerors of the laity or victors over the commoners.
"To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write: These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, He who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands." (Rev. 2:1)
"But this you have, that hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." (Rev. 2:6)
Both the church in Ephesus and Jesus Christ as the speaking Spirit hate the works of the hierarchy creating Nicolaitans. It stilfles the normal function of every member of the Lord's mystical Body.
Christ hates the heirarchy. Christ commends the church in Ephesus for also hating the heirarchy. What Christ loves He wants His believers to also love. What Christ hates He wants also His believers to hate.
The Apostle Paul labors to discourage the passivity and non-function of members. Paul encourages that each one part supply spiritual nourishment that the Body of Christ practically expressed in Ephesus would build up itself in love.
Latter we can look at the epistles to Timothy to see if Paul is attempting to build a heirarchy in his final days of ministry.
You Jazzns will detect that for my part I am completely convinced that we have one man writing these varied epistles. This is going to be a be an assumed point for me.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Jazzns, posted 02-14-2013 11:34 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Jazzns, posted 02-14-2013 11:15 PM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 210 of 383 (690651)
02-14-2013 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by jaywill
02-14-2013 7:07 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
Latter we can look at the epistles to Timothy to see if Paul is attempting to build a heirarchy in his final days of ministry.
You will notice that I was talking about all of the later works attributed to Paul including Timothy. In fact, I was responding to Richh's quote from Timothy.
Did you just not notice?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2013 7:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2013 12:57 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
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