Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,467 Year: 3,724/9,624 Month: 595/974 Week: 208/276 Day: 48/34 Hour: 4/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 329 (6879)
03-15-2002 12:01 AM


Two friends living in the 1700s had a small dispute.
One was a hard core christian and was sending letters to the
other trying to get him to convert to christianity.
After several of these letters he wrote him back.
Here is his letter.
I find this letter quite inspiring so please read on.
Feel free to email me with either words of critisism or encourgement.
"In your letter of the twentieth of March, you give me several quotations from the Bible, which you call the Word of God, to show me that my opinions on religion are wrong, and I could give you as many, from the same book to show that yours are not right; consequently, then, the Bible decides nothing, because it decides any way, and every way, one chooses to make it.
"But by what authority do you call the Bible the Word of God? for this is the first point to be settled. It is not your calling it so that makes it so, any more than the Mahometans calling the Koran the Word of God makes the Koran to be so. The Popish Councils of Nice and Laodicea, about 350 years after the time the person called Jesus Christ is said to have lived, voted the books that now compose what is called the New Testament to be the Word of God. This was done by yeas and nays, as we now vote a law.
"The Pharisees of the second temple, after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, did the same by the books that now compose the Old Testament, and this is all the authority there is, which to me is no authority at all. I am as capable of judging for myself as they were, and I think more so, because, as they made a living by their religion, they had a self-interest in the vote they gave.
"You may have an opinion that a man is inspired, but you cannot prove it, nor can you have any proof of it yourself, because you cannot see into his mind in order to know how he comes by his thoughts; and the same is the case with the word revelation. There can be no evidence of such a thing, for you can no more prove revelation than you can prove what another man dreams of, neither can he prove it himself.
"It is often said in the Bible that God spake unto Moses, but how do you know that God spake unto Moses? Because, you will say, the Bible says so. The Koran says, that God spake unto Mahomet, do you believe that too? No.
"Why not? Because, you will say, you do not believe it; and so because you do, and because you don't is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving except that you will say that Mahomet was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an impostor?
"For my own part, I believe that all are impostors who pretend to hold verbal communication with the Deity. It is the way by which the world has been imposed upon; but if you think otherwise you have the same right to your opinion that I have to mine, and must answer for it in the same manner. But all this does not settle the point, whether the Bible be the Word of God, or not. It is therefore necessary to go a step further. The case then is: -
"You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.
"The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea - that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness.
"The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the creation claims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the Word of God, or the creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.
"It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (I Sam. xv. 3) `Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'
"That Samuel or some other impostor might say this, is what, at this distance of time, can neither be proved nor disproved, but in my opinion it is blasphemy to say, or to believe, that God said it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at the impious cruelty of the Bible. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
"What makes this pretended order to destroy the Amalekites appear the worse, is the reason given for it. The Amalekites, four hundred years before, according to the account in Exodus xvii. (but which has the appearance of fable from the magical account it gives of Moses holding up his hands), had opposed the Israelites coming into their country, and this the Amalekites had a right to do, because the Israelites were the invaders, as the Spaniards were the invaders of Mexico. This opposition by the Amalekites, at that time, is given as a reason, that the men, women, infants and sucklings, sheep and oxen, camels and asses, that were born four hundred years afterward, should be put to death; and to complete the horror, Samuel hewed Agag, the chief of the Amalekites, in pieces, as you would hew a stick of wood. I will bestow a few observations on this case.
"In the first place, nobody knows who the author, or writer, of the book of Samuel was, and, therefore, the fact itself has no other proof than anonymous or hearsay evidence, which is no evidence at all. In the second place, this anonymous book says, that this slaughter was done by the express command of God: but all our ideas of the justice and goodness of God give the lie to the book, and as I never will believe any book that ascribes cruelty and injustice to God, I therefore reject the Bible as unworthy of credit.
"As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the Word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that you were educated to believe the Bible; and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case.
"You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other infidel. But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.
"When you have examined the Bible with the attention that I have done (for I do not think you know much about it), and permit yourself to have just ideas of God, you will most probably believe as I do. But I wish you to know that this answer to your letter is not written for the purpose of changing your opinion. It is written to satisfy you, and some other friends whom I esteem, that my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it."

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by LudvanB, posted 03-15-2002 1:06 AM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 329 (6906)
03-15-2002 1:59 PM


You are correct sir in your statement of the obvious...
" ...it clearly fails to prove anything in regards to the falsehood of the Bible. It is only an opinion and nothing more. "
You obviously found the essence of the letter offensive.
I believe its because it make a very good point.
The very quality that inspired me to post it.
------------------
Diamus - Seeker of Truth

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Cravingjava, posted 03-15-2002 7:01 PM Diamus has not replied
 Message 261 by jennacreationist, posted 06-23-2002 2:12 AM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 329 (6990)
03-16-2002 6:28 AM


Yes sir you are right. It is the greatest book of all time.
It is the most successful book, most wide spread and the most read.
It has lasted longer then any other book ever written and has been translated more then any other book. I do not find it offensive at all. In fact I find it very inspirational and believe it and christianity have done much good for the world. But I see the bible and christianity (along with many other religions) and primative. As you sir would see the aztec worship of a sun god or the salem witch hunt for that matter. I believe very much in the rights of others and living a good and moral life. In treating people as equals and spreading good will. I try not to judge you or others but you sir are judging me and my opinion as you have done to others in this post, one of the very things your bible forbids. I have observed that judgement is at the very heart of many religions. One religion judges another because of differences of belief. Most christians I know think they are better than non-christians (or, as your argument will probably be, "better off") and look down onto others as lowly and needing to be brought up or "saved". And the people of other religions ,in christian eyes, are obviously going to hell. I find that very sad and primative. I believe everyone has a right to there own opinion and a right to diplay that opinion without people like you coming around to "flame" them and tell them how wrong they are.
You come here acting christian and then going against the very grain of christianity with your actions. I do not judge you sir.
Do not judge me.
------------------
Diamus - Seeker of Truth
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-16-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Cravingjava, posted 03-16-2002 12:37 PM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 329 (7031)
03-16-2002 3:37 PM


It is useless to converse intellegently with such people due to all the faith and ignorance they wrap themselves in. Like a mother sheilding her young from the "real" world. No other opinions but there own can possible be right. It is useless, I am sorry to say.
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-16-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Cravingjava, posted 03-16-2002 6:41 PM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 329 (7069)
03-16-2002 10:21 PM


This will probably be my last post so listen up.
First of all, thank you mister admin for pointing out the riff-raff.
He has done nothing but try to faulter the debate in every post.
Now here is how things get different. I stand up for what I believe in and I must say that this thread Has Not broken any rule. But you mister Admin come in here to throw your weight around like a "rent-a-cop wanna-be". Thats right, everyone in here has the right to there own opinion (even CravingJava) as long as rules arent broken and they weren't. So why not go ahead and abuse your power and delete this post and me cause you know you want to. Otherwise, leave it alone until the rules ARE broken.
--------------------------------------
Diamus - Seeker of the Truth and Defender of those oppressed by ones in Power :^)
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-16-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 03-16-2002 10:37 PM Diamus has not replied
 Message 37 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-16-2002 10:41 PM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 329 (7074)
03-16-2002 10:50 PM


First of all I disrespected no one. And what others said did not emotionally effect me.
Second no activity here violated the rules to the point were you should have enterviened. You had very little reason to come in and threaten to shut down the thread. What do you think pays for this web site sir? Us...the users, the ones who provide the hits to the sites that in turn pay your superiors and/or you. You should think twice about causing a negative atmosphere for the users as I will now find somewhere else to debate.

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by doctrbill, posted 03-16-2002 11:11 PM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 329 (7076)
03-16-2002 11:14 PM


Post Deleted - Diamus
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-17-2002]

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 329 (7079)
03-17-2002 12:04 AM


I must say I appologize Percy. I shouldn't have acted in that manner.
But you do need to lighten up a little. No foul language was used and no one made any serious insults towards anyone else. Everyone was stating there opinion in a mostly civilized way. That IS what this place is for even if the topic strays a little. In fact I know of no serious debate where the topic didn't stray at least a little.
Anyway, I shouldn't have acted that way and I appologize.

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 03-17-2002 8:07 AM Diamus has not replied

Diamus
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 329 (7107)
03-17-2002 1:18 PM


Anyway, to get back on track here are a few assorted contradiction that are written in the bible.
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
-------vs.-------
I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
-------vs.-------
Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Copyright 1992 by Dan Barker. All Rights Reserved.
With so many contradictions in the bible it is easy to see kids loosing faith as I did once I was old enough to see christianity and the bible at face value.
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-17-2002]
[This message has been edited by Diamus, 03-17-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 03-17-2002 1:32 PM Diamus has not replied
 Message 45 by TrueCreation, posted 03-17-2002 2:32 PM Diamus has not replied
 Message 89 by w_fortenberry, posted 04-22-2002 1:53 AM Diamus has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024