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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 226 of 383 (691073)
02-20-2013 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 12:11 PM


Re: Paul versus Paul
When people use his words to drive social reform, it becomes the business of those who wish to move us forward to deconstruct the badly justified claims.
Jesus Christ spoke to His followers about being "a city on a hill" (Matt. 5:14) and "the salt of the earth " (Matt. 5:13). A city on the hill is a testimony where righteousness and justice can be seen by the surrounding world. And the salt of the earth speaks of a preservative preventing the whole world from becomming corrupt.
This is what the genuine local EKKLESIA must be. Her presence is Ephesus, Colossia, Loadicea, New York, Washington DC, Moscow stands as a testimony of where people are under Christ's lordship in all things. ( Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied ) The existence of local churches as Paul labored to establish are a "salt" - a preservative preventing the entire society from decay into moral rotteness.
This is not just my theology but the experience of thousands of us on the five continents (and millions plus in mainland China underground) . Our looking forward is towards the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom on the earth.
In the meantime the these communities of genuine local churches are not engines of social reform for society at large, but the presence of a preservative of decay for it "salt" and testimonies as a "city on a hill" exemplifying that there is another way to live.
The Paul of Ephesians and the Christ of Matthew of course, speak the same thing.
In your apologetics, everything may be fine and dandy for yourself, unified in the indwelling of Christ of whatever.
Some of us take Paul's word literally - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God" (Eph. 1:1)
This is a servant of God not tossing around his imaginative opinions of things. Rather a trained, prepared, and revelatory "sent one", one with Jesus Christ laboring for the will of God. That Christ is Son of God, we take seriously. That Paul was one of His apostles, we also take seriously.
This is not to mean Paul was a perfect man. Only Christ is a perfect man. But Paul was a "wise master builder" (1 Cor. 3:10) of local churches and of the church universal.
Fighting with him, as the Corinthians and the Galatians did, is missing a large portion of the blessing of his service to Christians. Your complaints against Paul are really nothing new. The Corinthains argued with him with suspicious accusations questioning his motives, questioning his credentials, questioning his methods, etc.
I find much of the complaints against Christ's apostle here to be just worn over rehash of some first century recipients of his letters.
In the letters to Corinth we see a good deal of skeptical audiences wrestling with Paul. Yet we are encouraged that a good deal of them were won over from their suspicions. I think in the Ephesians letter he had a very receptive audience, at least for a time.
But not all people read or have read the bible the way you do. They do not use the hammer of apologetics to try to bang out the dents left by these obvious contradictions.
And not all people have received a revelation that Christ is the Son of God. When Peter admitted that Jesus was the Son of God Jesus said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him by His Father.
Some people see "contradiction" because they have no revelation from God. The word firstly contradicts themselves. You know Paul twiced prayed for his audience in Ephesus that they would receive from God revelation and experience. Here are Paul's two marvelous prayers that his readers would receive something from God Himself -
"Therefore I also ... making mention of you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritants in the saints, etc. etc. " (See 1:15-23)
This is only a portion of Paul's petition that his readers be enlightened by revelation from God to see what he saw of God's economy.
Then there is Paul's second petition to the Father in Ephesians -
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father ... that He would grant you, according the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all saints ... etc. etc. etc. " (See 3:14-19)
These are not just nice sounding words to many of us. Each phrase is pregnant with meaning and reality.
We need revelation to see Christ as the Son of God. We need something "flesh and blood" alone cannot grant us. And to see the extensiveness of Paul's Christ - the length and breadth and height and depth, also we need revelation and strengthening in the innermost spiritual being.
They will simply persist in cognitive dissonance about the difference between Paul in Philemon and Paul in Ephesians. Or they may just simply use the Bible like you fear, taking pieces as they need for their own agenda. Or they may just be completely ignorant of the differences because they don't read the bible a whole book at a time.
Ephesians is an exceedingly profound book. It is a pity that in the hands of some the amount of attention is given to arguing that he didn't write it and that it has some bad instructions for wives and slaves, is unfortunate.
I see in this a dissonance that the big picture is so extensively missed in favor of comparably minor exhortations. I don't fail as much to grasp the immediate practical nature of these exhortations. You seem to want to make them major dogmas.
All things taken together, I think you are making too big of a problem with a few practical and immediate words of instructions in chapters 5 and 6. You really are missing the larger picture.
This is to me like sitting down at a turkey feast only to hunt for a few small bones to choke on.
When you take all of Paul's words together there is no problem there for me. It is quite balanced and impartial and has God's will in view in the largest sense.
I am glad that you have found a way to harmonize all this for yourself. But what I see from how you justify this, you are using faith to smooth over a jagged edge in a plain reading of the text. Your explanation only works if you believe in the list of premises encoded in your preaching.
I do not believe, so the jagged edge remains.
We live this way. As Paul labored that the members of the Body would be knit together and the living stones would be built together. God is building up His dwelling place of God in spirit. Being fitted together and blent together in oneness is the work of the Spirit for the building of the church.
As in Ephesus so in many localities on the earth today, the believers from different walks of life are growing in the divine life together and being built up in oneness as Paul labored to bring about.
We expect Christ as "the Desire of the nations" (Haggai 2:7) to return physically to this earth. Ephesians gives as a way we can cooperate with Christ and His apostles for His purpose.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:11 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 11:57 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 227 of 383 (691076)
02-20-2013 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
02-15-2013 9:03 AM


Re: "Headed up in Christ" and "in Christ"
Yes im here...on and off. Ive been working a lot lately. are you a Trinitarian or a Oneness Pentecostal? Reason I ask is to ask if you see any distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ?
My God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. I definitely believe in the Triune God.
I am not a Oneness Pentecostal. But as far as I have seen some verses they espouse I would also. I would not do so in a way to damage other passages. That is to use one verse to fight against another. I want to believe the whole Scripture.
I think you are refering to the "Jesus Only" kind of Pentacostalism of say the "Apostolic" denomination. No I am not in that denomination.
The Father and Son and Spirit are distinct but not separate. Each lives within the other - coinherance. And this is very mysterious but experiencal and enjoyable to the believers in Christ.
The Three of the Trinity I believe are distinct but not separated. And human words will be limited in fully explaining the three-oneness of God. There is the limitation of human language.
This might help you to see where I am coming from:
"Modalism, Tritheism or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God" by Ron Kangus
Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God – Contending for the Faith
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 02-15-2013 9:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 228 of 383 (691092)
02-20-2013 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Jazzns
02-15-2013 11:26 AM


Re: I surrender!
So in Paul's day and culture, yea this may have been true. But this is quite obviously a product OF his culture. Again I'll say that if what you are claiming is only that, that Paul is a creature of his culture and time then I have no beef. But it becomes much harder to support that these verses are universal, enduring, inspired, or that these are works to live by today.
With many of the writers of the books of the Bible we can detect evidence of their own times.
When Paul says that the saints should greet one another with a holy kiss, we can detect this is more customary in some areas of times of human culture than in other. Perhaps in the Middle East to greet one another with a kiss is very typical.
Though in the West we may greet one another with a hand shake the concept of RESPECT or EFFECTION is universal. In the new covenant church the saints should show effection and respect for one another. Ages and cultures may change. We live Christ in each age and culture. We give thought to what is noble in the sight of all.
Whether a holy kiss or a holy handshake or a holy bow, what REALLY is the difference ?
Some people exploit minor cultural norms dicerned in the letters to mean major stumbling blocks to discipleship of Christ.
Whether you have indepted servitude or employer / employee relations - if both are Christians churching together or even if one is a brother - certain principles should be manifest in their behavior. These should be genuine from the heart and not done as eye service.
Insubordination, exploitation are addressed. The times and culture may vary. Certain things are not effected by these cultural changes.
Before we get to chapter 5 or 6 about Paul's exhortations to wives, husbands, servants or masters there are probably a hundred marvelous espects that should be treasured in the Christian life.
As I pointed out before, Paul exhorts the believers to be "filled in spirit" . Basically speaking, this is to be filled with the presence of the available Jesus Christ in the innermost human spirit - filled with the Spirit of Christ in the human spirit.
Every wife, every husband,every servant, every master, every one old enough to know what the church life is should be calibrated to the one living Lord Jesus Christ within them.
This to us believers is not a "take or leave it" "whatever!" matter. This is crucial and vital. That is why Paul says that in the Body of Christ, the church, Christ is all and in all. He is the fulness of the one who fills all in all.
To bypass all of this and choke on respectful wives and non-insubordinate employee or servants is unfortunate. It is also unfotunate to miss the multitude of healthy spiritual teaching and fail to notice husbands willing to lay down their lives for their wives and masters treating their servants to what is just and equal.
It gives the impression that one is going out of his way to pick a fight.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2013 11:26 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 12:04 PM jaywill has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 229 of 383 (691096)
02-20-2013 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Richh
02-19-2013 11:25 PM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
I don't have any books by Goodspeed so I cannot review his lines of reasoning other than what you mentioned.
That's why I provided a link in Message 99. You can read exactly the words I read.
quote:
From your Farrar quote:
...Impugners of its authenticity must account for its wide and early acceptance, no less than the difficulty of its forgery. It is a simple fact that the Epistle was accepted as unquestionably Pauline from the days of Ingatius to those of Schleiermacher.

What is the evidence that Ignatius unquestionably considered the Book of Ephesians to be Pauline? Some say Ignatius quotes Ephesians, but does he really? Does he actually attribute the quote to Paul or something he says Paul wrote?
A cursory look doesn't show me that he obviously does.
quote:
I mentioned in another post that if this were written to be an introduction to Paul's epistles, the introduction has more revelation than the epistles it introduces. I believe those who 'tear it apart' have not seen these things.
Why assume that God did not provide any more revelation to Christians after Paul died. New revelation or inspiration needs to happen for religion to adjust to the needs of the people. That's why we have to understand the point of the lesson or argument to the audience of the time.
The early church father's wrote many well written letters. The assumption that no one could write better than Paul or as good as Paul is a weak argument.
quote:
But my main goal here is to show that there are cogent and compelling arguments in favor of Pauline authorship of this Epistle and to make it clear that the case is not closed on the subject.
Case not closed among scholars or this thread? It has already been mentioned that scholars are about equally divided on the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Richh, posted 02-19-2013 11:25 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:02 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 263 by Richh, posted 02-25-2013 11:33 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 264 by Richh, posted 02-26-2013 7:34 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 230 of 383 (691109)
02-20-2013 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by jaywill
02-20-2013 7:21 AM


jaywill versus jaywill
Some people see "contradiction" because they have no revelation from God. The word firstly contradicts themselves.
So I need some kind of special sauce to understand why words on this page don't disagree with words on the other page?
Your telling me that the real way to get around condtradictions in the bible is to use magic?
How compelling!
Ephesians is an exceedingly profound book. It is a pity that in the hands of some the amount of attention is given to arguing that he didn't write it and that it has some bad instructions for wives and slaves, is unfortunate.
All things taken together, I think you are making too big of a problem with a few practical and immediate words of instructions in chapters 5 and 6. You really are missing the larger picture.
This is to me like sitting down at a turkey feast only to hunt for a few small bones to choke on.
Well the only reason this discussion on these particular verses has gone on as long as it has is because you insist on defending these verses in the most bizzare manner imaginable.
It is not that I am looking for bones to choke on but rather that I have numerous people telling me that the bones I am choking on are actually gravy. They are not.
It has take THIS long, for you to admit that these verses are "bad instructions". Why?
Moreover, I have more than once now tempered my criticm of Ephesians on exactly the basis you are complaining about. There is plenty else in Ephesians to find value in. If what Christians claimed is that they use Ephesians because of the parts that are good and that they recognize that the parts that are bad are a product of Paul's time, this wouldn't be an issue. My problem has always been the claim that the totality of Ephesians is the holy and that there aren't any mistakes.
I see in this a dissonance that the big picture is so extensively missed in favor of comparably minor exhortations. I don't fail as much to grasp the immediate practical nature of these exhortations. You seem to want to make them major dogmas.
That is because these verses in Ephesians along with some in Timothy, and something someone added to 1 Corinthians, among many others have all been used to support the idotic and immoral notion that there is a heirachy of dominance from men to women. Your very long and eloquent defense of these verses stands testament to this. They may not be major dogmas to you but they have helped shape our culture over centuries. If they are not major dogmas why is there such a frantic rush to rescue Paul on these issues that on their face offend our modern morals? It seems somewhat strange to me now that you now call this "bad instructions" when you went to such lengths to stand by it.
On your position jaywill, color me confused.
(As an aside, I know there are other places where Paul talks about patriarchy that are undisputed or less disputed. It is not my argument that these letters were forged because the original Paul was an obvious raging feminist. That is quite unlikely.)
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 7:21 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 231 of 383 (691111)
02-20-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jaywill
02-20-2013 9:14 AM


Ephesians was late to the game
It gives the impression that one is going out of his way to pick a fight.
You made this same point in your other reply so I will expand on it here to pivot to perhaps a new line of investigation of Ephesians.
I have said, and I will say again to try to be as clear as possible, that Ephesians in its entirety is not without merit. I have never claimed, that because of these few problems that Ephesians should be thrown away in its entirety and if I have by mistake, I will retract that now.
When I look back at how this discussion started, the issue I raised with these verses was enjoined quite vigerously. You went as far as to say that the entire chapter of Ephesians 5 is "wonderful". Over these few verses I have been personally attacked, told that my disagreement with orthodoxy was the equivalent of Holocost denial, had my argument falsely dismissed as trying to make Paul into a social crusader, all over what you are now claiming is a minor point in a big picture.
So lets talk about the big picture some.
Paul in Ephesians is looking at the fruits of the apostolic age as something that has past. He talks about how the spiritual resurrection is in the present.
Ephesians 2 writes:
You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
This is a much LATER developing theology. This is different from the kind of resurrection that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians, Romans, etc.
To this Paul, there was a current and immediate resurrection that will then be followed later by a return of Christ. This is the natural evolution that Christianity was forced to take once the generations after the apostolic age had died. The first attempts are somewhat evident in 2 Thessalonians where "Paul" once again tries to smooth things over by putting pre-conditions on the day of the Lord due to the fact that some people ALREADY were taking the leap that Paul eventually gets to in Ephesians.
We are so used to this notion in our modern forms of Christianity that it is hard for us to imagine how the people in Paul's age thought about the concept of resurrection and salvation. Paul was eagerly awaiting the return of Christ. To him, the resurrection wasn't something you lived with to empower a long life with the satisfaction of knowing that you are already seated with Christ. To him, the baptism, the rejection of the law, the communion with other believers, was all for the purpose of preparation for this soon to happen event.
And Paul wasn't the only one. He was one of many that took variations on this message early on in Christianity. You had messianic jews who rabidly thought that the end was nigh. They even argued AGAINST Paul's version of lawless grace and his failure to stress strict chastity.
Ephesians is a post-hoc re-rationalization of original Christian dogma once that dogma had withered with the patience of time.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 9:14 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 5:25 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 232 of 383 (691132)
02-20-2013 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by purpledawn
02-20-2013 9:23 AM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
That's why I provided a link in Message 99. You can read exactly the words I read.
I checked out that link. It went to Wikipedia. I didn't see anything there that looked like a link to his introduction to the NT. Let me know if I missed something.
Why assume that God did not provide any more revelation to Christians after Paul died. New revelation or inspiration needs to happen for religion to adjust to the needs of the people. That's why we have to understand the point of the lesson or argument to the audience of the time.
I think the force of Farrar's argument regarding the writings subsequent to the New Testament writings, especially, those of Paul, is that none were up to the standard of Paul's writing and no one emerged with the same repute as Paul. You may cite the Epistle to the Hebrews as an example of a high quality anonymous Epistle. I don't believe there are any others subsequent to the New Testament writings. Certainly there are no additional books considered canonical.
Case not closed among scholars or this thread? It has already been mentioned that scholars are about equally divided on the issue.
Agreed. I just wanted to list some arguments in favor of Pauline authorship to underline the open nature of the case and to balance what I perceived as an imbalance in arguments in favor of modern skeptical opinion.
I'll look again at the commentary on Ignatius.
P.S. I like your 'quoting' style and will try to emulate it next time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by purpledawn, posted 02-20-2013 9:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by purpledawn, posted 02-20-2013 2:47 PM Richh has not replied
 Message 244 by purpledawn, posted 02-23-2013 7:32 AM Richh has replied

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 3737 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 233 of 383 (691134)
02-20-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by kofh2u
02-18-2013 7:35 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
I hope Jazzns is not offended if I do not consider you offensive. You bring out some of the exact points that I have mentioned in previous posts - that there are underlying issues and that these issues are still present today whether or not we have an institution of slavery.
Not that I don't condemn the slave trade and the practices of slavery in this country in the past. Kidnapping and inhumane treatment of fellow human beings is wrong at all times and in all places. But I think the same tendencies to racial discrimination and bias exist today that existed 150 years. I call that evil. The Bible calls it sin (and visa versa).
It is hard to maintain the balance between labor and 'management', between entitlement programs and a 'work ethic', and things like that.
The Bible always advocates care for the fatherless, the widows and the foreigners. There is actually a law of slavery in the Pentateuch where the slave goes free on the seventh (Sabbatical) year. It addresses the case where someone loses everything and must sell himself into service. The service must continue 6 years, but on the seventh the bondslave goes free. I don't know if this was ever practiced in Israel (but it is 'on the books'). Furthermore, sold property of one's portion of the land went back on the 50th year. But the slave might opt to serve the master forever.
Exodus 21:1 Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. 21:2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; but in the seventh he shall go out free without payment to you. 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 21:4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. 21:5 But if the servant plainly says, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free; 21:6 Then his master shall bring him to God and shall bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall bore his bear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.
A wise Christian friend, a Christian leader, said he disburses church funds 'to the emergency' but not 'to the life style'. I fear some today in America are taking advantage of our generous policy of unemployment benefits. This is not to say we should withhold, but to freeload is wrong. America often errs on the side of generosity and she gives the benefit of the doubt legally.
They say you shouldn't talk about religion or politics. I don't consider this either. It is morality. I hope we will have moral men as politicians...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by kofh2u, posted 02-18-2013 7:35 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 3:40 PM Richh has not replied
 Message 236 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 3:44 PM Richh has not replied
 Message 302 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 10:18 AM Richh has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 234 of 383 (691135)
02-20-2013 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Richh
02-20-2013 2:02 PM


Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
I checked out that link. It went to Wikipedia. I didn't see anything there that looked like a link to his introduction to the NT. Let me know if I missed something.
Try the link on introduction to Ephesians. There's more than one link in the sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:02 PM Richh has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 235 of 383 (691139)
02-20-2013 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Richh
02-20-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
I hope Jazzns is not offended if I do not consider you offensive.
Did you see the part of his message that I quoted? The part where he claims that 70% of black people are freeloading on society?
THAT is what I was calling offensive. Not the rest of his diatribe.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:43 PM Richh has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 236 of 383 (691140)
02-20-2013 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Richh
02-20-2013 2:43 PM


Slavery in Deut
Exodus 21:1 Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. 21:2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; but in the seventh he shall go out free
This is such a cannard. I have to at least point out that this edict obviously only applies to Hebrew slaves and was well understood by ancient people that it did so.
Slaves of other nations were not afforded this right. In particular, in Ephesians we are probably NOT talking about Hebrew owners or slaves.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:43 PM Richh has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 237 of 383 (691144)
02-20-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Jazzns
02-20-2013 12:04 PM


Re: Ephesians was late to the game
So lets talk about the big picture some.
I am all ears.
Paul in Ephesians is looking at the fruits of the apostolic age as something that has past. He talks about how the spiritual resurrection is in the present.
The church needs to see how Christ's resurrection applies to the daily Christian experience. Did you not read the words of Jesus concerning His resurrection ?
"Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19)
Because He will live in resurrection His disciples will also live. They will live in union with the resurrected and available Christ. The world will not longer behold Christ's physical presence. In spite of this Christ in His resurrection form will be the empowering transmission of His very presence by which the believers will live.
Paul beautifully brings this out in his chapter on resurrection, First Corinthians 15, when he writes - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
In His physical resurrection Christ also transfigured Himself to be a divine life imparting, life dispensing, life transmitting Spirit. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit.
quote:
Ephesians 2 writes:
You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
This is a much LATER developing theology. This is different from the kind of resurrection that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians, Romans, etc.
I have already shown you that the availability of Christ as life giving Spirit is a cardinal truth in Paul's chapter devoted to the subject of resurrection - First Corinthians 15.
There are many other places in the Corinthains letters where the availability of Christ is definetly taught. But let's move to Romans.
What Christ has undergone, what Christ has attained, what Christ has obtained is FOR the daily life of the Christian disciples. His work is transmitted into the believers by mean of His indwelling availability as life giving Holy Spirit.
The turning point in the book of Romans from a more objective Christ to a subjective Christ occurs in chapter 5:
1.) The Christians are not only reconciled from being enemies, by His redemptive death. They will be subjectively saved in the whole realm of His life, His resurrection life.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)
In the whole sphere of His resurrection presence, much more the Christ will be saved. As to the past he HAS been reconciled in position. As to the future there is something much more for him - to be saved in the realm of Christ's life.
2.) Subjectively throught the abundance of grace the believer can reign in divine life -
" ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (5:17)
This is not a defeated Christian. This is an overcoming Christian, victorious in her daily life, reigning in life through Christ's indwelling grace. The living Christ Himself becomes the gift of righteousness in a practical daily way. The believer can reign as one who overcomes.
Remember - "Because I live, you also shall live."
3.) Romans six is very rich with the truth that the believer has died and risen with Christ. This is profound. What Christ has done can be transmitted into the believer so that he can apply Christ's work to himself.
"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him." (6:8)
We can live with Christ because Christ lives.
"For [the death] which He died, He doed to sin once for all; but the life which He lives, He lives to God." (6:10)
This is actually Jesus Christ Himself living in the believer a life to God. Christ blends with and mingles with the one who has believed INTO the resurrected and available Christ.
" ... just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (6:4)
This too is living in oneness with the resurrected Christ. And the believer can walk step by step in "newness of life" in union with Jesus Christ.
4.) The death and resurrection of Christ are both available to the believer. His death kills off germs of the fallen nature. His resurrection imparts new divine life into the personality. But are a matter spiritual growth and encrease, of enlargement, development by gradual maturation -
"For if we have grown together whith Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (5:5)
All this and we have not even gotten into Romans chapter 8 yet, when all heaven breaks loose.
Maybe I should reserve Romans 8 for a post or two dedicated to believers living in union with the risen Christ.
To this Paul, there was a current and immediate resurrection that will then be followed later by a return of Christ.
Christ historical resurrection becomes the applicable resurrection and soul transforming work of the Holy Spirit.
While the resurrected Christ as a life giving Spirit is operating to transform the believer, we are also eagerly expecting His physical return. This expectation is taught both in the gospels and in Romans.
First early in the Roman epistle Paul writes of the coming judgment of God through Jesus Christ. This necessitates His second coming -
" ... you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. " (2:5)
"In the day when God judges the secrets of men according to my gospel through Jesus Christ." (2:16)
But this is rather negative and in the early chapters of Romans where Paul is laying the foundation of justification by faith upon all those under condemnation. On a more positive aspect in Romans, we have the expectation of His return is linked with the manifestation of the sons of God in maturity -
" ... if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him." (8:17)
" ... the coming glory to be revealed upon us ... the anxious watching of creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God." (8:18)
" ... we ourselves groan in ourselves eagerly awaiting sonship, the redmption of our body." (8:23)
" ... the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (8:21)
In these passages Christ's comng from above and without is in conjuction with Him coming from within and glowing out from inside. This is like two ends of a circle meeting. He comes from above and He comes simulateneously from within some victorious matured ones.
This maturation of the sons of God at His second coming may also be linked to His crushing of Satan under the feet of the Christians. For in reigning in life they have overcome Satan subjectively and rendered a great defeat to God's enemy -
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (16:20)
Of course the second coming of Jesus is explicitly taught in First Corinthians -
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorrujptible, and we will be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. When this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is wroitten will come to pass, "Death has been swallowed up unto victory" " ( 1 Cor. 15:51-54)
What Paul here describes in First Cortinthians is also what he teaches in Romans about the redemption of the body at the Lord's coming and glorification of the saints.
Ie. " ... we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagery awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:23)
" ... and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (v.30c)
The Paul of Romans and First Corinthians is also the Paul of Ephesians.
Continued below.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 12:04 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 238 of 383 (691146)
02-20-2013 6:11 PM


This is the natural evolution that Christianity was forced to take once the generations after the apostolic age had died.
Strictly speaking, after the original 12 apostles were no longer on the scene, was not the end of apostles.
Even if through respect some dare not today to refer to themselves as "apostles" out of respect for the original 12, some do the work of apostles none the less.
That the church should grow is not the necessity because of the departing of the 12 apostles. That is a necessity regardless. It is not that "The apostles are gone. So we must grown spiritually and mature!" Whether they be present or be departed the church should develop in the divine life and grow.
The first attempts are somewhat evident in 2 Thessalonians where "Paul" once again tries to smooth things over by putting pre-conditions on the day of the Lord due to the fact that some people ALREADY were taking the leap that Paul eventually gets to in Ephesians.
This doesn't make too much sense to me. I see in the Thessalonian epistles, Paul simply keeping the young saints sober minded about signs concerning the last days.
I have no idea what you mean about Paul trying to "smooth things over."
It appears that Paul is rehashing some of Christ's dialogue in Matthew chapter 24. He is also going over some of the principles about the watching and ready parables of Christ's servants in Matthew.
This is all Paul faithfully passing on what he knows of Christ's teaching. But more importantly what Paul himself has LIVED concerning Christ's teaching. Paul's life and ministry were one. Here is a man who lived what he preached and preached what he lived.
I see not "smoothing over" of anything in the Thessalonian epistles. Many of us regard the Thessalonian church as being younger and probably consisting of relatively more recent believers of a younger spiritual age. Such needed this kind of fellowship.
We are so used to this notion in our modern forms of Christianity that it is hard for us to imagine how the people in Paul's age thought about the concept of resurrection and salvation. Paul was eagerly awaiting the return of Christ.
As well he should have. And as well as many saints since then also have. It is quite normal that we believers should eagerly await His return today.
It is the slothful servant that Jesus said, said to himself "My lord is delaying his coming." This slothful one will be in danger of being caught off guard and unprepared for reward, though he be redeemed.
It is entirely a non-issue to me that the Apostle Paul and the other apostles eagerly expected Christ's return. What parted lovers don't yearn to meet again - (in the sense that Christ is physically absent).
Both Peter and Paul yearn for Christ to come soon. And both do not allow such an expectation to hinder them from preparing another generation or generations of Christians for a long distance run.
To him, the resurrection wasn't something you lived with to empower a long life with the satisfaction of knowing that you are already seated with Christ.
I showed you that death with Jesus and rising with Jesus Paul spoke of as life long growth. This is transformation of the soul. This is being conformed to the image of Christ.
"For if we have grown together with [Him] in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be abbulled, that we should no longer serve sins as slaves." (Rom. 6:5,6)
This is very profound. But briefly it means that Jesus Christ is the beleivers history. He must believe that. He must apply that. He has been crucifed with Christ and raised with Christ and seated also with Christ. It is all with Christ. It is not on our own merit that we stand. We only identify with Christ in every way. It is His finished work that empowers us from within and operates as we believe.
Paul told the Romans that they should not be ignorant of these truths. In other words they should SEE this revelation and live accordingly for it is effective to do so.
" .. are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?" (6:2)
The Christian should not be ignorant of the truths of God in this universe. Christ's attainment is the believers' legacy and history.
This is precisely what Paul teaches in Ephesisans when he says that Christ may make His home in our hearts through faith. We have to exercise our faith to let Christ the living One settle down in each and every chamber of our personality. He is faithful and will do it.
"That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power thorugh His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:16,17)
By FAITH we may apply the living and resurrected Christ into our very personalities. He can be formed in us. And believing that He is there to be our all and all He can renew our minds unto transformation.
"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing our the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2)
Grow together with Christ.
Transformed by the renewing of the mind.
Christ making home in the hearts through faith.
All these phrases refer to the resurrected Jesus dispensing Himself as life giving Spirit into every part of the believer's spirit and soul and eventually glorifying the physical body as well.
In Romans Paul locates Jesus Christ in two places simultaneously. He is in the saints (Romans 8:9-11). And Christ is also at the right hand of God in the third heavens interceding (Rom. 8:34)
So, the resurrection of Jesus was applicable, available, applyable for everyday normal Christian living.
To him, the baptism, the rejection of the law, the communion with other believers, was all for the purpose of preparation for this soon to happen event.
And Paul wasn't the only one. He was one of many that took variations on this message early on in Christianity. You had messianic jews who rabidly thought that the end was nigh. They even argued AGAINST Paul's version of lawless grace and his failure to stress strict chastity.
Ephesians is a post-hoc re-rationalization of original Christian dogma once that dogma had withered with the patience of time.
Ephesians is not only in Romans and the Corinthian epistles. Ephesians is in the four gospels.
Ephesians is in Matthew and certainly in John. Paul was faithful.
Jesus did not mention circumcision as Paul did. However Jesus mentioned the same principles as Paul taught concerning the Sabbath keeping and the dietary rules. Paul simply extended the same concepts to cover circumcision as well.
With me attempts to drive some kind of wedge between Paul and Jesus will not work. I know the New Testament too well.
This brother Paul pioneered in the way Jesus taught to an encredible degree. Thank God we had such an example. Instead of vainly trying to pit Christ and His apostle against one another, I am sure you should rather learn from them whom Jesus sent.

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 7:10 PM jaywill has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 239 of 383 (691147)
02-20-2013 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jaywill
02-20-2013 6:11 PM


The wedge
I am sorry jaywill. I try hard to digest your posts but these last two are too much. You are waging a quote war with each line of my reply that I am not interested in untangling the mess.
I invite anyone who is reading to simply take our respective points, read for yourself and decide. Read the whole books of Ephesians, Romans, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, and 1 Corinthians 15. They aren't that long, this is an afternoon exercise. Bear in mind that Ephesians and 2 Thessalonians are the two here that should stand out. Look at how Paul talks about the resurrection and the return of Christ. Notice how the tense is translated (assuming you have a good translation, I recommend the NRSV). Is Paul talking about something that has happened or something that will happen? The interpretation will be in the eye of the beholder.
With me attempts to drive some kind of wedge between Paul and Jesus will not work. I know the New Testament too well.
I have not driven a wedge between Jesus and Paul. I have simply illuminated the gap that exists between Paul and his very own self. No need to bring Jesus into this, that is something you did.
You certainly are very good at pulling out particular quotes. That is true. I am simply not impressed with tapestry weaving using bible verses. These books have a history, order, and purpose that stands outside your apologetics. To divorce their understanding from these rich bases make it all ring quite hollow. I am perfectly happy to let your last two posts stand as a monument and let any readers decide.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 6:11 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jaywill, posted 02-20-2013 11:00 PM Jazzns has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 240 of 383 (691160)
02-20-2013 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Jazzns
02-20-2013 7:10 PM


Re: The wedge
These books have a history, order, and purpose that stands outside your apologetics. To divorce their understanding from these rich bases make it all ring quite hollow.
Does this history and rich bases include that fact that Jesus rose from the dead ? Or does this history and "rich bases" mean to you that Jesus is dead and buried ?
My understanding of these epistles is bound up in my belief and agreement with the authors concerning Christ being resurrected and alive and available to be known.
If you don't believe that Christ is available, regardless how glowingly you speak of historical importance and rich bases, your explanations are frought with hollow unbelief woeful lack of experience.
Putting it bluntly, you wouldn't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. And my explanations, which are not that outlandish to Christian experience, would be like explaining a Beethoven symphony to a cow.
Don't look now, but the purpose of every one of these Pauline epistles is to enrich the believers experience and enjoyment of the Jesus Christ who lives and can be known.
I am not abusing the purpose of the writings in favor of trying to salvage some humanism from the supernatural essence of what Paul is writing about.
Take Romans. Either the writer is mad, horribly self deceived, a vicious liar, or he's telling us the truth.
I believe and expound Romans as Paul talking about realities as they actually are.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Jazzns, posted 02-20-2013 7:10 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Jazzns, posted 02-21-2013 5:00 PM jaywill has replied

  
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