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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 40 of 1034 (691773)
02-25-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
02-25-2013 4:10 AM


Re: Ring Species -- Greenish Warbler -- and Genetic Diversity
But again I'd make the point that even if mutations are involved all they do is form the collection of alleles from which the new phenotypes are created, and in order for that to occur they have to undergo the same processes of selection, isolation, and concomitant reduced genetic diversity I'm talking about.
I don't see how you can type stuff like that quoted above and not see the inherent problems.
Yes it is true that selection removes individuals who vary from the favored species. But that does not mean that evolution removes diversity overall. For example if a mutation is created that adds diversity, even if the original species goes extinct, the new species is exactly as diverse as the original species. So the net diversity before and after the mutation and selection is exactly the same.
Secondly, the assumption here is that if selection causes the original species to die off, that must inevitably remove some trait from existence. There are a number of things wrong with that assumption.
First, the parent, grandparents, and cousins of the original species might well still exist, and those species contain almost all of the diversity of the species from which the new species comes. Couple that with the fact that the new variant may differ from the originating species in ways that are different from the way that the originating species differs from its parents, grandparents and cousins.
Th net result is that even if this originating species gets outcompeted and dies out in favor of the mutants, there is no overall loss of diversity. All of the original traits still exist in either the new variant or the cousins and parents of the species in question.
Finally speciation need not result in the loss of any species at all.
Now the situations I outline above do not happen every time, and of course some ancestor and cousin species might be evolutionary dead ends. But the discussion above is sufficient to show that evolution does not inevitably result in a decrease in overall diversity.
The jeer button is the button on the left bearing the minus sign.
Finally, what's the difference between this thread and the 670+ message thread from three years ago.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 02-25-2013 4:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 02-25-2013 1:06 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 383 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-09-2015 5:42 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 51 of 1034 (691806)
02-25-2013 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
02-25-2013 1:11 PM


I have to leave to get my blood pressure down in any case.
This thread has gone to the dogs in the last few hours and I'm too annoyed to bother dealing with it now.
It must indeed be frustrating to know more about evolution than any of the scientists posting in the thread, and to yet be unable to teach them anything.
Best to just give every counter argument a jeer and be done with it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-25-2013 1:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 02-25-2013 2:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 68 of 1034 (691827)
02-25-2013 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
02-25-2013 2:41 PM


but I certainly know more than YOU with your ridiculous misrepresentation of my argument.
What argument? When are you going to get around to presenting something based on more than assertion?
In your most recent posts, you've suggest that all alleles are already present and that evolution is simply just getting some already present variation to come to the fore.
That suggestion is complete nonsense. You cannot back it up with anything but assertion, and yet it turns out to be the entire basis for your position. The truth is that evolution and selection work on both already present and new diversity. If you want to deny that then do the work involve with arguing against that proposition.
But you haven't and you won't. Yet somehow the fact that you don't have a case is everyone else's fault and not your own.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 02-25-2013 2:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 80 of 1034 (691842)
02-25-2013 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dr Adequate
02-25-2013 3:31 PM


Re: The effect of the flood bottleneck
"I'm Sorry, I Still Don't Know What The Theory Of Evolution Is, So Will Someone Please Explain It To Me?"
Isn't that the title of this thread? It's certainly what the title says to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-25-2013 3:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 107 of 1034 (691907)
02-26-2013 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
02-26-2013 9:35 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Oh but we DO know of such limits. They occur all the time when breeding programs are too aggressive, when you have too few individuals from which you are breeding.
Those limits are not applicable to evolution scenarios. We don't know of any limits to change that can accumulate in large populations.
First of all, the breeding you are describing is not speciation. When people breed dogs they get a new breed of dog that is of the same species and in fact, the same sub species. Invariably the new dogs are capable of interbreeding with the essentially all other dogs. There may be some physical obstacles due to size, but essentially all breeds are interfertile. In fact, the primary task involved with keeping dog breeds pure is keeping mutts out of the kennel. And yes, for the most part, the new breeds do come from variations within the dog species, but there are exceptions. One such exception is those funky dachshund legs. We know that those legs come from a mutation and we know exactly what mutation causes them.
On the other hand, common descent requires much more input from mutation than that. If the theory of evolution is correct, then species evolved from a common ancestor that did not contain all of the traits of modern species. Mutation is kinda slow, but on the other hand, the claim is that evolution has occurred over eons.
All you are really doing in this thread is asserting that for one reason or another, that common descent and the evolution is wrong. I have no doubt that you are absolutely convinced of that, but you are not offering any argument that it is wrong, you simply assert that evolution plays no role. In essence this is simply a Bible thread hiding in a science forum.
But back to the comparison of evolution with breeding programs and the plight of the cheetah. Problems with breeding programs come from many sources, but a primary one is the reinforcement of recessive harmful genes due to interbreeding in a population that has too few individuals. If the population is too small, then such reinforcements cause problems regardless of the rate of mutation. None of that demonstrates that evolution or common descent cannot work when the populations are large enough. Proponents of evolution do not believe that the cheetah can evolve its way out of its problem.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 02-26-2013 9:35 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 2:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 1034 (691981)
02-26-2013 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 2:13 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
How is this a fair comment at all? Where are the bible quotes? If someone questions the viability of evolution, the automatic throwback position is that its a bible argument?
That's a quite fair question. The answer is no, questioning evolution is not automatically a Bible argument. However, an argument consisting of simple assertion that evolution and mutations cannot produce change that crosses baramin boundaries is a Bible based argument.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 2:13 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 12:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 1034 (692097)
02-27-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
02-27-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I've done a lot more than merely assert this, I've walked you through all the reasoning that leads to this conclusion time after time after time. Most of my posts bring out the logic that leads to this conclusion.
Point to a post that provides a reason why mutations cannot introduce the diversity needed to produce baramin crossing evolution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 12:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 1034 (692124)
02-27-2013 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Percy
02-27-2013 5:42 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
But mutations play an extremely minor role in breeding programs.
Exactly so. It is a mistake to claim otherwise. Mutations are random with respect to fitness; They don't show up just when needed. Mutations may be neutral under in the current environment and then beneficial when things change.
But it is equally a mistake to discuss breeding programs as if they involved all of the mechanics involved in common descent.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 02-27-2013 5:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 02-28-2013 8:46 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 159 of 1034 (692125)
02-27-2013 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
02-27-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I gave your post a cheer because it's a pretty good summary of the disagreement.
You CLAIM that mutations keep adding diversity so that this doesn't normally happen but you do not KNOW that. You know that there ARE mutations but you don't know what they actually DO in the population. Again it's an article of faith based on your theory telling you that's what has to happen.
Let's say that your claim about what evolution proponents do not know is true. Then at best you are claiming that you simply don't believe in the theory of evolution. I think we already knew that before you started either of these 'end of evolution threads'. I appreciate the peek into your thought processes, but I don't think you've accomplished much else.
But in fact, your claim is wrong. There is evidence for the role of mutation in evolution, so people who accept the theory need not do so on faith.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 6:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 175 of 1034 (692148)
02-28-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
02-28-2013 9:08 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Well, would you agree that if the faucet and drain are both open you aren't getting evolution? That is, you aren't getting the development of new varieties/species/breeds?
No one would agree with that.
If the big change that makes a new species is fur color, is an individual with a mutation that makes the individual resistant to swine flu not part of that new species?
Look at the current level of diversity in humans. Does that diversity prevent them from being of the same species? This idea of yours borders on the inane. Every human possesses genetic code that neither of his/her parents had. This fact alone ought to answer your question.
Speciation is a completely different thing than making a new breed of dog. When breeding, in the rare case when a visible mutation showed up, the breeder would kick that dog out of the gene pool even if the mutation were genetically beneficial. That is not at all how natural selection works.
Added by edit:
I see you are continuing to argue this idea. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory of evolution. The view you are attacking is not what anyone believes.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 9:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 9:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 1034 (692151)
02-28-2013 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Percy
02-28-2013 8:46 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Faith hasn't yet enabled us to understand why she believes that diversity is under all circumstances diminished faster than it is augmented.
Yes she has.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 02-28-2013 8:46 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 181 of 1034 (692155)
02-28-2013 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
02-28-2013 9:44 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Then you aren't really thinking about the reality of the situation which is not simple water in water out. "Water in" builds up the gene pool. That is NOT evolution if by evolution is meant the production of species.
No generating variation is not evolution. Evolution is variation + selection. Those processes need not be simultaneous. The end result over long periods can be speciation, but not every variation results in the kind of survival dominance that produces speciation.
Yes, but in the wild it would get blended in through the next generations which would form whatever phenotype or breed is going to form. Wild populations are not selected as breeds are but they are selected in the sense that they are nothing more than the mixing of an isolated gene pool with its own gene frequencies and that's the same thing as happens in breeding only the selecting forces are more random in the wild.
You are still not quite describing how evolution actually works.
Selection works only on traits that affect fitness in a given environment. Traits that do not affect fitness can still be passed on to descendents. However, some of those traits might be selected for if the environment changes.
Selection has not produced a homogeneous population of human beings in the last few thousand years.
Yes, but in the wild it would get blended in through the next generations which would form whatever phenotype or breed is going to form.
Let's be more specific about what "blending" means.
Only some individuals would have that non-beneficial and non deleterious change. Phenotype changes don't magically get distributed to entire populations unless they improve fitness to a degree that substantially punishes individuals not having the trait by making it too competitively hard for them to bear young. Only the mutant's descendents can get a particular mutation.
And if conditions change, or if some part of the species enters an environment in which conditions favor that particular phenotype, then we can get speciation due to the separation. In that case both species will exist and will be equally diverse to the pre-mutation population. But speciation need not begin at the same point in time at which the mutation appears.
We do have an enormous range of recognizable diversity in PHENOTYPE that doesn't occur in wild animals. Grizzly bears all look like grizzly bears
There is only one species of humans with some diversity. There are also 8 species of bears and grizzlies are just one type of brown bear. Some of the species of bear can interbreed. So just which grouping represents more diversity?
You DO agree that evolution IS the production of new species, don't you?
Evolution can produce new species, but the evolution is slow, and involves processes that are not themselves evolution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 9:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 1:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 187 of 1034 (692167)
02-28-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
02-28-2013 11:00 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Selection is something that happens at the population level as I am using it.
Perhaps you are misusing it.
Selection operates on the phenotypes of individuals. How could it be otherwise? It is individuals of a a population that compete with their fellows and with members of other species for food, safety, shelter, and of course mates.
Of course when looking at evolution, the plight of any single individual is of a minor consequence. When only one individual is involved, it might well be that despite being the only member with wings, that individual still gets eaten by an eagle. The consequences of selection is on populations.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 11:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 188 of 1034 (692168)
02-28-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
02-28-2013 11:00 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
You do not NEED mutations to get all the variety in living things we see. Which is a different argument from whether mutations occur and contribute. In my system mutations are simply not needed, and can interfere.
In your system? Your system is about breeding and not evolution. Yes, mutations can interfere with breeding. But breeding does not produce new species.
Genetic drift is a form of selection so that new subpopulations can form within larger existing populations
This is just flat wrong. Genetic drift is the propagation of new traits in a population without selection.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 11:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 190 of 1034 (692175)
02-28-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taq
02-28-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
The differences between human and chimp genes is not due to different alleles in our common ancestor. Those differences are due to lineage specific mutations.
Nice and succinct. These differences are the distinction between evolution and eugenics breeding programs which seems to be what Faith considers to be evolution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Taq, posted 02-28-2013 12:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
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