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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 121 of 1034 (691948)
02-26-2013 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
02-26-2013 10:06 AM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I have no doubt that you are absolutely convinced of that, but you are not offering any argument that it is wrong, you simply assert that evolution plays no role. In essence this is simply a Bible thread hiding in a science forum.

How is this a fair comment at all? Where are the bible quotes? If someone questions the viability of evolution, the automatic throwback position is that its a bible argument?

Does the same thing work for your side. Is any argument for evolution, which doesn't have the science to back it up, really just an argument for atheism?

For instance, you are claiming this:

Problems with breeding programs come from many sources, but a primary one is the reinforcement of recessive harmful genes due to interbreeding in a population that has too few individuals. If the population is too small, then such reinforcements cause problems regardless of the rate of mutation. None of that demonstrates that evolution or common descent cannot work when the populations are large enough.

Since you can not prove that the problems of reinforcement of harmful genes can be overcome after time, and growth, then really you are just promoting atheism in a science forum.

Besides, it is your side that claims that isolation of small breeding populations leads to more rapid evolutionary change.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 02-26-2013 10:06 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 2:45 PM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 02-26-2013 9:52 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 122 of 1034 (691949)
02-26-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
02-26-2013 1:21 PM


Re: Plant Breeding
Faith writes:

Nope, it always had the genetic capacity to produce corn but that capacity had to be brought out by selection.

See my Message 118 to CS explaining why corn might not be a good example for either side in the discussion because of the significant role played by hybridization, i.e., introduction and removal of genes and alleles from other closely related plants.

I've been accepting that mutation could create the material for selection to work on,...

It isn't that mutation "could" create new alleles and genes - it's that it *does*. The copying of genetic material during reproduction is imperfect. Almost every new life possesses a number of mutations. In the case of human beings it averages around 100 mutations in each newborn.

And naturally, once genes and alleles are present then selection will operate on them.

Actually the mutation idea doesn't make much sense. They made broccoli, cauliflower, and a few other edible plants from one rather scrawny plant. They chose plants with the largest flowers and kept breeding for that trait from generation to generation until they got this gigantic flower that is cauliflower. They did the same with whatever part finally developed into broccoli. It was all from the same scrawny little plant, simply favoring the part they wanted to become more desirable, big etc.

Plant breeders having human lifetimes, they cannot wait for the right mutation to show up in their greenhouses. If a mutation consistent with the qualities he's seeking happens to pop up then hallelujah, but he can't depend upon it. The details of the breeding programs for broccoli and cauliflower are lost to history, but looking this up a bit I see that both are easily hybridized, so again not helpful to either side.

You think by simply choosing plants with the biggest flowers you are going to get a mutation for even bigger flowers? Don't think so.

This would be correct, see my previous paragraph. Plant breeders cannot wait around for mutations. In a population of millions and billions of plants there will be huge numbers of mutations, but in the much more finite numbers in a breeder's greenhouse the number of mutations will be limited and unlikely to help.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 02-26-2013 1:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 123 of 1034 (691950)
02-26-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
02-26-2013 1:21 PM


Re: Plant Breeding
Nope, it always had the genetic capacity to produce corn but that capacity had to be brought out by selection.

That is false. Corn has specific mutations not found in wild teosinte, and these mutations are responsible for some of the corn specific features. For example, mutations in the tga1 gene:

quote:
The most critical step in maize domestication (Zea mays ssp. mays) was the liberation of the kernel from the hardened, protective casing that envelops the kernel in the maize progenitor, teosinte1. This evolutionary step exposed the kernel on the surface of the ear such that it could be readily utilized as a food source by humans. Here, we show that this key event in maize domestication is controlled by a single gene (teosinte glume architecture; tga1) belonging to the SBP-domain family2 of transcriptional regulators. The factor controlling the phenotypic difference between maize and teosinte maps to a 1 kilobase region within which maize and teosinte show only six fixed differences in their DNA sequences. One of these differences encodes a non-conservative amino acid substitution and may affect protein function, while the other five differences potentially affect gene regulation. Molecular evolution analyses show that this region was the target of selection during maize domestication. Our results demonstrate that modest genetic changes in single genes can induce dramatic changes in phenotype during domestication and evolution.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1464477/

These are new mutations producing new phenotypes which is an increase in genetic diversity.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 02-26-2013 1:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 02-26-2013 3:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 124 of 1034 (691951)
02-26-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 2:13 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
How is this a fair comment at all? Where are the bible quotes? If someone questions the viability of evolution, the automatic throwback position is that its a bible argument?

Given the correlation between religious belief and denial of evolution one can hardly be blamed for making the connection. If you actually cited scientific facts instead of using empty assertions perhaps you could avoid these allegations.

Since you can not prove that the problems of reinforcement of harmful genes can be overcome after time, and growth, then really you are just promoting atheism in a science forum.

You have not shown that there is a problem. Again, you need more than empty assertions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 2:13 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:15 PM Taq has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 125 of 1034 (691955)
02-26-2013 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Taq
02-26-2013 2:45 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Given the correlation between religious belief and denial of evolution one can hardly be blamed for making the connection.

Given the correlation between belief in evolution and atheism, virtually all the speculation about evolution being true needs to be suspect.

If you actually cited scientific facts instead of using empty assertions perhaps you could avoid these allegations.

You just said that one can't make assertions without scientific fact to back it, and then you say, "You have not shown that there is a problem."

In other words, YOUR side is allowed to make assertions, and it is up to the opposing side to show there is a problem?

You haven't shown there is a problem with Faith's ideas. I guess because you are so busy trying to promote your atheism worldview.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 2:45 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:24 PM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 126 of 1034 (691956)
02-26-2013 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Taq
02-26-2013 2:42 PM


Re: Plant Breeding
When I looked this up earlier today I didn't find mutation mentioned much, while hybridization was mentioned a lot. The genetic differences described in your reference likely arose through introduction from related plants rather than through mutation.

Of course, if you go back far enough the origin of all genetic material is mutation.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 2:42 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 127 of 1034 (691957)
02-26-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Given the correlation between belief in evolution and atheism, . . .

False correlation. There are tens of thousands of christian biologists who accept the theory of evolution.

You just said that one can't make assertions without scientific fact to back it, and then you say, "You have not shown that there is a problem."

In other words, YOUR side is allowed to make assertions, and it is up to the opposing side to show there is a problem?

You are the one asserting that there is a problem. It is up to you to support your claims. Where is your evidence?

You haven't shown there is a problem with Faith's ideas.

Yes, I have. I have cited peer reviewed scientific papers to back my claims, such as the mutations found in corn and the mutations found in pocket mice.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:15 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:33 PM Taq has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 128 of 1034 (691959)
02-26-2013 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Taq
02-26-2013 3:24 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
How does a supposed mutation in a pocket mouse refute Faith's claims?

You see, its this kind of deceitful arguments that make your assertions suspect.

Do you know that there are people of all different religious faiths, even atheists who don't believe in Darwinian evolution?

So once again your double standards and deceitful arguments are showing your desire to push an anti-religious agenda.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:24 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:35 PM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 129 of 1034 (691960)
02-26-2013 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 3:33 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
How does a supposed mutation in a pocket mouse refute Faith's claims?

Mutations add genetic diversity, contrary to Faith's claims. That is what the mutations in pocket mice illustrate. At one point, there were just light colored mice. Mutations caused the appearance of a new phenotype. That is an increase in genetic diversity by every measure.

You see, its this kind of deceitful arguments that make your assertions suspect.

Do you know that there are people of all different religious faiths, even atheists who don't believe in Darwinian evolution?

So once again your double standards and deceitful arguments are showing your desire to push an anti-religious agenda.

Do you deny that you have a belief in a creator deity? **the rooster crows**

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:33 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:38 PM Taq has responded
 Message 132 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:43 PM Taq has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 130 of 1034 (691961)
02-26-2013 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
02-26-2013 3:35 PM


Taq's religion makes him suspect.
Do you deny you are agnostic/atheist?

Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:35 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:42 PM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 131 of 1034 (691963)
02-26-2013 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 3:38 PM


Re: Taq's religion makes him suspect.
Do you deny you are agnostic/atheist?

Not at all.

Do you deny that you believe in a creator deity? **the rooster crows a second time**


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:38 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:48 PM Taq has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 132 of 1034 (691964)
02-26-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Taq
02-26-2013 3:35 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Your pocket mice story is not complete until you showed what the pocket mice evolved from. Plus you have to account for the other 4 instances where pocket mice showed black fur without that mutation.

But again, you probably only believe the story of the pocket mouse, because you are atheist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:35 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:49 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1673 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 133 of 1034 (691965)
02-26-2013 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Taq
02-26-2013 3:42 PM


Re: Taq's religion makes him suspect.
I believe that until you can come up with a plausible explanation for how the laws of gravity, the laws of electromagnetism, the laws of the strong and weak nuclear force, and the existence of any law at all coming into being through an unordered, chaos-the existence of desired order is the default position.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:42 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Taq, posted 02-26-2013 3:50 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 134 of 1034 (691966)
02-26-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 3:43 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Your pocket mice story is not complete until you showed what the pocket mice evolved from.

Already did that in post #78.

Plus you have to account for the other 4 instances where pocket mice showed black fur without that mutation.

How will 4 more examples be more convincing when 1 is not? If those 4 other examples are due to mutations in 4 other genes what then? Just ignore those too?

What if I cite the mutations in humans that are responsible for differences in skin color? What then? Just ignore those too?

But again, you probably only believe the story of the pocket mouse, because you are atheist.

I accept it because of the evidence, something that you don't have for your claims.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:43 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 135 of 1034 (691967)
02-26-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Bolder-dash
02-26-2013 3:48 PM


Re: Taq's religion makes him suspect.
I believe that until you can come up with a plausible explanation for how the laws of gravity, the laws of electromagnetism, the laws of the strong and weak nuclear force, and the existence of any law at all coming into being through an unordered, chaos-the existence of desired order is the default position.

How many time will you deny Jesus before the day is over? Three? Peter would be proud.

Until you show how a deity produced the universe the default position is "I don't know".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-26-2013 3:48 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
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