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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3750
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 151 of 1034 (692111)
02-27-2013 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
02-27-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
No, Faith, the reality is as I stated. We have the studies, we have the observations.

This forum is full of cites to studies, experiments, verified observations, volumes of data on all the points I cited.

These are not wishful thinking on the part of biologists and geneticists but the results of years of concentrated effort that you just so cavalierly dismiss. Insulting.

Not all mutations are deleterious. In fact the majority of them are not. Demonstrable fact.

New altered alleles do enter into populations via mutation. We have seen it in the lab. Demonstrable fact.

We know common ancestry among the majority of lineages. We have both the morphology and the ever increasing accuracy of genetics to show, with as close to certainty as we can get, the relationships among the species, genus, family, order, class and beyond.

Unlike you, these scientists did not pre-plan their conclusions. These things are where the data lead. And you insult them as incompetent, ignorant fools.

For the last 20 years of thousands of geneticists studying all manner of genome from virus to human uncovering the operations, the exons, telomeres, introns, finding the details of promoters, enhancers, control genes, endogenous retroviruses, do you really think they would have missed or ignored something like any evidence of some super-genome?

Meanwhile you have no proof for your paradigm either, all you have is a consensus of belief.

By the thousands with lab work, published articles, studies, facts, data , evidence ...

Just how damn stu*pid do you think these people are?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 6:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 7:14 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 152 of 1034 (692112)
02-27-2013 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by AZPaul3
02-27-2013 7:07 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I regret my heated words and am taking them back. Forgive me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 7:07 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Taq, posted 02-27-2013 7:21 PM Faith has responded
 Message 156 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 7:44 PM Faith has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 153 of 1034 (692114)
02-27-2013 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
02-27-2013 7:14 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I RECOGNIZED WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A SERIES OF POPULATION REDUCTIONS/ISOLATIONS/SELECTIONS OCCUR AND I REALIZED THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT FOR THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.

Why do you ignore what happens when mutations occur and increase genetic diversity?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 7:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 7:41 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 154 of 1034 (692115)
02-27-2013 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
02-27-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
What actually happens in reality is that the processes of evolution come to an end by running out of genetic possibilities.

Evidence please.

In REALITY. This is demonstrated in breeding and it is demonstrated all the time in the wild where conservationists are concerned about species endangered by genetic depletion.

This doesn't refute the observation of mutations adding genetic diversity.

You know that there ARE mutations but you don't know what they actually DO in the population.

Yes, we do. They produce increases in genetic and phenotype diversity. Why else do you think humans and chimps look different? They are different because mutations have changed their genomes. The differences are due to mutations.

The other paradigm is that the existing genotype is quite sufficient to provide all the diversity needed for new phenotypes to emerge through many population splits, each new reduction in numbers reducing the genetic diversity until eventually if the splitting keeps continuing you arrive at speciation and inability to further evolve new varieties.

Then show us the combination of chimp genotypes that can produce a human.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 6:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 1034 (692120)
02-27-2013 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Taq
02-27-2013 7:21 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I have not ignored them I've explained that they don't stop the march to genetic depletion, all they do is contribute some of the material that selection depletes. I'm looking for a model to demonstrate this.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Taq, posted 02-27-2013 7:21 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Taq, posted 02-28-2013 10:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3750
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 156 of 1034 (692121)
02-27-2013 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
02-27-2013 7:14 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
And no one else, of the thousands that have studied the facts in extreme detail ever recognized:

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A SERIES OF POPULATION REDUCTIONS/ISOLATIONS/SELECTIONS OCCUR AND I REALIZED THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT FOR THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.

Only you did. Why?

Because they are not trying to form a process that leads to the conclusion that biblical genesis is Truth®.

You can scream as loud as you want and till the cows come home it doesn't matter. Your motive is to make the story fit genesis and whatever off-the-wall illogical BS bending, folding and mutilating of reality necessary to accomplish that is what you will adopt as true.

You don't have a clue that if studies are done within a biased theoretical framework you are going to get biased conclusions.

This from someone who's "theoretical framework" is not only so biased that reality cannot get through but is totally un-evidenced in even the most minor way.

I will not accept your faith-based biased reasoning and you will not accept any reality that challenges your bible. We can continue to throw sand at each other all day long, Faith, and will accomplish nothing.

What I will do for you, M'lady, now that I have made you scream, is to get you a cup of relaxing tea ...

(_)?

... and let you have the last word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 7:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 7:49 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 157 of 1034 (692122)
02-27-2013 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by AZPaul3
02-27-2013 7:44 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I regret my heated words and am taking them back. Forgive me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 7:44 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 1034 (692124)
02-27-2013 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Percy
02-27-2013 5:42 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
But mutations play an extremely minor role in breeding programs.

Exactly so. It is a mistake to claim otherwise. Mutations are random with respect to fitness; They don't show up just when needed. Mutations may be neutral under in the current environment and then beneficial when things change.

But it is equally a mistake to discuss breeding programs as if they involved all of the mechanics involved in common descent.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 02-27-2013 5:42 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 02-28-2013 8:46 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 159 of 1034 (692125)
02-27-2013 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
02-27-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I gave your post a cheer because it's a pretty good summary of the disagreement.

You CLAIM that mutations keep adding diversity so that this doesn't normally happen but you do not KNOW that. You know that there ARE mutations but you don't know what they actually DO in the population. Again it's an article of faith based on your theory telling you that's what has to happen.

Let's say that your claim about what evolution proponents do not know is true. Then at best you are claiming that you simply don't believe in the theory of evolution. I think we already knew that before you started either of these 'end of evolution threads'. I appreciate the peek into your thought processes, but I don't think you've accomplished much else.

But in fact, your claim is wrong. There is evidence for the role of mutation in evolution, so people who accept the theory need not do so on faith.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 6:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 1034 (692126)
02-27-2013 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by AZPaul3
02-27-2013 5:42 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
Deleterious can mean doing damage that doesn't show up in a changed function except after many mutations have accumulated, and I'd guess such sleeper mutations as it were constitute the majority of the mutations out there. Just a guess. If that's diversity you can have it.

Prediction from this guess is that we'll be seeing lots more genetic diseases in the near future.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 8:45 PM Faith has responded
 Message 183 by Taq, posted 02-28-2013 10:53 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3750
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 161 of 1034 (692127)
02-27-2013 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
02-27-2013 8:31 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
I'd guess such sleeper mutations as it were constitute the majority of the mutations out there.

Except this has been going on for many hundreds of generations now and we have yet to see this accumulation of deleterious "sleeper" mutations. If your speculation is correct we should have seen this quite some time ago. Given the large number of mutations involved I wouldn't think there should be any humans left after all that time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 8:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 8:58 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 1034 (692128)
02-27-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by AZPaul3
02-27-2013 8:45 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
That's your prediction. Mine is what I said. We wait and see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 8:45 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Coyote, posted 02-27-2013 9:45 PM Faith has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 163 of 1034 (692130)
02-27-2013 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
02-27-2013 8:58 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
Faith writes:

That's your prediction. Mine is what I said. We wait and see.

The two predictions are :

Faith: Prediction from this guess is that we'll be seeing lots more genetic diseases in the near future.

AZPaul3: Except this has been going on for many hundreds of generations now and we have yet to see this accumulation of deleterious "sleeper" mutations. If your speculation is correct we should have seen this quite some time ago. Given the large number of mutations involved I wouldn't think there should be any humans left after all that time.

From what I've been reading, I can infer that Faith sees the time span involved as ca. 6,500 years ago--or more accurately just since the Flood at about 4,350 years ago. Further, I can infer that the whole idea behind "lots more genetic diseases" is related to the concept of "The Fall."

AZ disagrees, based first on the evidence for an old earth, and secondly on the constant elimination, rather than accumulation, of deleterious mutations from the gene pool.

If I may add my two cents worth:

The old earth evidence is overwhelming, and the only folks who dispute it are those blinded by old religious myths. The science has long since been settled: the earth is billions of years old, not thousands.

But the second point is more amusing--the belief in "The Fall" and the rapid degeneration of the human species due, presumably to "original sin." This seems to be coloring all of Faith's arguments in this thread.

I find that the concept of "original sin" is not just contrary to the scientific evidence (there is no rapid increase in genetic diseases), but to be the most abhorrent concept every dreamed up in the fevered minds of shamans and other ne'er-do-wells throughout history.

Ayn Rand had a few words to say about this, and she said it far better than I ever could:

The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.

A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man’s nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.

Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a “tendency” to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html

Any religion that pushes both a young earth and a belief in original sin is both willfully and deceitfully ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, and inherently evil.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 8:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 10:23 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 6:42 AM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 02-28-2013 7:33 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3750
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 164 of 1034 (692135)
02-27-2013 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Coyote
02-27-2013 9:45 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
If I may add my two cents worth

Hey! That's 4 cents worth. You owe each of us another penny!

... eh ... your'e not Canadian are you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Coyote, posted 02-27-2013 9:45 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Coyote, posted 02-27-2013 10:29 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 165 of 1034 (692136)
02-27-2013 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by AZPaul3
02-27-2013 10:23 PM


Re: Constant Increase In Genetic Diversity
... eh ... your'e not Canadian are you?

Eh?

(No.)

But I had a hot button pushed. Let's see what kind of a response we get.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 10:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2013 10:49 PM Coyote has responded

  
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