Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,352 Year: 3,609/9,624 Month: 480/974 Week: 93/276 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Nature of Scepticism
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 105 of 271 (691701)
02-24-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
02-23-2013 11:25 AM


Re: Too far already? Yep
You say The Truth and I say the "truth".
In case it isn't already clear, I'm mocking the concept of Ultimate Truth. If there is such a thing as The Truth, it's pretty near certain that you don't know what it is.
Yes, I am saying Truth, which infers the Ideal.
I also realize that you are trying to mock Truth by ignoring its definition.
Truth is that which corresponds, directly and one-to-one with what actually Exists.
Truth is congruent with Reality, and is born in the wake of the every unfolding Reality which is on-going.
It is similar to History, but it is congruent with the factual reality.
The truth to which you refer is inside men's mind, and competes with the perceptions and lies and illusions therein.
But nevertheless, it is the measure of their Intelligence as can be seen by the number of correct answers on IQ tests.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 02-23-2013 11:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 02-25-2013 11:55 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 108 of 271 (691765)
02-25-2013 10:39 AM


...the thing about skeptism...
The one defining thing about skeptism is the fence that one is standing on, having neither fallen off to the one side of an issue or the other.
It is the definition of open mindedness but unqualified as to the extent one demands more evidence, in some particular case or another.
NOTHING can be proven to you or I, unless we have already agreed upon some particular discipline in advance, like Mathematics, Geometry, Empiricism, etc,...
We each reserve the right to be unconvinced and insist that nothing at all has been proven to us, personally.
This makes us all skeptics to some extent, measurable by the weight of the evidence it takes to convince us otherwise.
Then, there are the fundamentalists, like the Athesits and the Creationists, for example, who from the start are bias, and intend to so remain.

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 109 of 271 (691768)
02-25-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-15-2013 1:54 PM


... Fundamentalist are rhose who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
"I wish to propose for the reader’s favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true". - Bertrand Russell, Introduction to Sceptical Essays
Is this an accurate reflection of scepticism? Is it the approach taken by science? Is it paradoxical and subversive?
If we apply the above where does that leave claims of the mystical and superntural?
The missing postulate to this claim is that the supposed "sceptic" must already have agreed to some particular discipline of general knowledge, wherein whatever will be brought forth as "evidence" has already been established therein.
I can not use mathematics to convince a person of certain Facts if that person can not count.
I can not indisputably argue that two triangles are congruent unless one has already reasoned with me in elementary Euclidean Geometry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-15-2013 1:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2013 11:28 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 117 of 271 (692051)
02-27-2013 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Straggler
02-25-2013 11:28 AM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
So all knowledge is axiomatic as far as you are concerned?
The knowledge is not axiomatic, but the field of the inquiry that presents a fact as knowledge is always axiomatic.
All knowledge is contingent upon the axiom(s) inherent in the particular discipline wherein there is evidence to support that knowledge.
For instance, the evidence of an Algebraic solution depends upon the Twelve Field POSTULATES.
The eight basic axioms of Geometry must be agreed to as, assumed they are true, before the Proof of a geometric fact (knowledge) can be established.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2013 11:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 02-27-2013 4:17 PM kofh2u has replied
 Message 122 by Eli, posted 02-27-2013 7:20 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 118 of 271 (692054)
02-27-2013 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
02-25-2013 11:55 AM


Absolute Truth is an oxymoron...
kofh2u writes:
Truth is that which corresponds, directly and one-to-one with what actually Exists.
ringer:
Skepticism is the practice of determining whether or not a claim does correspond directly and one-on-one to what actually exists. Without skepticism, there's no way to know if something is "true".
Whether one knows what is true or not is irrelevent to the existence of Truth.
Truth exists in the absence of man, himself.
Truth is the Ideal which corresponds to what is real and actually exists.
Truth is the son of the ever unfolding next Frame of Reality that sires that truth is its wake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 02-25-2013 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 02-28-2013 11:12 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 124 of 271 (692183)
02-28-2013 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
02-28-2013 11:12 AM


Re: Absolute Truth is an oxymoron...
If "Truth" is a black box that we can't unlock, it's worthless.The only way we can know what is real and actually exists is by observing it. An "ideal" of what it might be is worthless.
Right.
And all this you ask for was resolved when the Scientific Method was devised in the 18th century.
Scientists thens began gathering facts about Reality which everyone (willing to set up the exact same laboratory conditions) would observe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 02-28-2013 11:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 03-01-2013 10:59 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 125 of 271 (692184)
02-28-2013 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Straggler
02-27-2013 5:05 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Then why do we bother with evidence of any kind at all?
What purpose does it serve?
We gather the evidence in order to describe the ever unfolding Reality and avoid the insanity of living in some fantasy based upon ideas that are not true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 02-27-2013 5:05 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2013 9:13 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 126 of 271 (692186)
02-28-2013 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
02-27-2013 4:17 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
So all methods of knowledge acquisition are axiomatic as far as you are concerned?
The Father of modern Philosophy, Rene Descartes said yes.
He accepted the one axiom that he existed, then used his seven senses to verify the existence of other things.
This was the essence of the Scientific Method we use today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 02-27-2013 4:17 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2013 8:06 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 131 of 271 (692227)
03-01-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Coyote
02-28-2013 9:13 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Creationists aren't going to like that comment!
I know.
And look at what has happened to their church attendance.
They have buil a fantasy world inside their congregations that requires their members to argue and support lies.
This is compounded by the hypocrisy of preaching self control over one's sexual behavior and urges, (as evidenced within the RCC, but equally as wide spread in every religious group including the Rabbi and minsiters of the denominatioinal Protestants, they attack the very science that coukd support their medieval bible teachings simply because their loyalty to their oparticukar Faith has always taught Genesis that way).
The saving grace of the church lies in it long history of Charity, and they better build upon that record by establishing a rational and sane relationship with Science and academic facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2013 9:13 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 03-01-2013 10:24 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 133 of 271 (692235)
03-01-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Straggler
03-01-2013 8:06 AM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
I can accept "Cogito ergo sum" as a starting point for inquiry. I don't however think it should be immune from critical analysis or unquestioningly accepted as axiomatic (both Hume and Nietzsche to name but two found it wanting).
1) We need to more clearly recognize that an axiom is something that can not be proven, and some people (as you mentioned above) might refuse to accept that axiom as valid.
We see this with the YECs who refuse to accept the science Axiom of a First Cause.
Hence, YECs can and do deny Science the foundation for its claim of natural Cause and Effect in every case.
They are then able to assert supernatural "causes," always challenging Science on the singular example of the old "Chicken and the Egg" conundrum about the First Cause.
With that clear, we can understand that a Postulate or an Axiom is always constructed and inherent in every academic discipline.
Therefore, in every case, an initial agreement is always required of the one side by those people who intend to use arguments based upon the disciplines to which they will refer as their proofs and evidence.
2) Though each discipline of academics sets forth its own initial postulates, I do think they are all founded upon the singular observation of Descartes.
Essentially, Descartes was saying that, he would rely upon his seven senses as sources of external information which created ideas inside his head, but not original to himself.
He was forced by his own axiom to concede that some external OTHER source also thinks, exists.
He saw the incoming signals as thoughts (messages) reaching into his mind.
But they were not in themselves sourced by his own mind.
Essentially, Descartes was recognizing "The Other." (Jean Paul Sartre: "Existentialism )
He was asserting that he was not alone, as he previously had axiomatically claimed.
He was recognizing that "other" entity that, through these incoming bits of information, said to him, "I am."
He was recognizing that he was inside, like in a fenced garden, (Eden?), and Reality, that Other thing which he now could prove (to himself) did exist too.
Descartes had said, "I think, hence I exist."
But thereafter, from that axiom, it followed that thinking was coming unbidden from some other source that he had to acknowledge for the same reason: "'It' thinks inside my head, so it also exists," (that other external reality).
3) Of course, I have no evidence that he did this because the Church reacted to his publishing of the book, "The Rules of the Mind" by buying up every single copy Rene had managed to publish on his own.
I suspect that the Vatican might some day agree wit me on this and release those writings, but it is certain that if I am saying what Rene said, they would have silenced him thereafter had he not died from exhaustion in his service to the Queen, Catherine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2013 8:06 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 5:16 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 136 of 271 (692269)
03-01-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
03-01-2013 10:59 AM


Re: Absolute Truth is an oxymoron...
...the scientific method can only approach "truth".
(so...?)
It can devise an image that resembles reality more and more closely but the image can never be reality.
(So...?)
Thus, it makes no difference whether "Absolute Truth" or "Ultimate Truth" exists at all.
It is irrelevant to our understanding of reality.
You are trying to confuse the existence of Truth with the ability for man to model it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 03-01-2013 10:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 03-02-2013 10:57 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 139 of 271 (692450)
03-03-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
03-02-2013 10:57 AM


Re: Absolute Truth is an oxymoron...
No, I'm pointing out that the existence of "Truth" is irrelevant. Only what we can model matters.
It mattered to Neanderthal man who went extinct because of his inability to see the Truth.
That prevented him from adapting to the changing environment.
It matters to us now, too.
As we rise in numbers and misuse the resources on Earth to over capacity, a massive avalanche of evolutionary change is building up and a New Heaven and New Earth is about to slide down in place of the false world view we are still living inside:
If man does not start to model the Truth that exists in spite of his ignorance, the Facts-of-Life will matter very very much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 03-02-2013 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 03-05-2013 11:20 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 140 of 271 (692451)
03-03-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Straggler
03-03-2013 5:16 AM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
If two different academic disciplines based on different axioms result in two mutually exclusive conclusions regarding reality how do you decide which conclusion best reflects reality?
Are all axioms equal or are some more equal than others?
Usually when in the course of scientific investigation we find the paradox of conflicting theories, we return to those axioms which were assumed true, and revise, alter, change, or study them with the suspicion that one or he other, or both are actually not true at all.
An example would be the idea that Euclidean Geometry explains the real world.
The Reality is that Euclidean Geometry explains only the macro-cosmos which is on a level of understanding different from the Space/Time relative to us otherwise, and elsewhere.
In that domain, Reinmann Geometry reigns over what we can discover about Reality in that dimension.
And, of course, these facts of life are just what Reality actual is.
Take it or leave it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 5:16 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 2:48 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 142 of 271 (692462)
03-03-2013 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
03-03-2013 2:48 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Can you give a non-mathematical example of axioms used in scientific investigation?
Cause and Effect is the major axiom isn't it?
Our theories are all based upon the axiom that there is always a Cause for every effect.
But, before that axiom, the "excuse" that a First Cause be Postualted, (axiom), and agreed to as an exception is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 2:48 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 3:59 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3838 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 144 of 271 (692478)
03-03-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
03-03-2013 3:59 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
On one hand you are asserting that we use axioms to discern that which is true. On the other hand you seem to be suggesting that we can reject some axioms because they turn out to result in conclusions that are demonstrably not true.
This seems somewhat contradictory doesn't it?
You donot seemto know what an axiom is.
An axiom is something which seems true but has never been proven, and appears unprovable.
So people can agree to accept that unproven idea as the basis for developing other ideas which WOULD be true if and only if the prime axioms are ACTUALLY true.
When you digest that definition, you will be able to see how it could turn out that the initial belief in that basic axiom was misplaced.
An excellent example is Ptolemy's explanation for the Solar System, based upon the false Axiom that the sun rotated around the earth.
He logically and mathematically described all the movements.
His Model of the Solar System was used for almost 2000 years.
But Galileo demonstrated the axiom was false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 3:59 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 8:33 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024