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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 1034 (692289)
03-01-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
03-01-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
NoNukes writes:

You can pick the measure. Is the set of inter-fertile bears more or less diverse than the set of currently existing inter-fertile humans? Are grizzly bears more or less diverse than some sub grouping of humans I might elect?

Faith writes:

How could I possibly know and why does it matter?

You are the one who introduced grizzly bears into the discussion. I'm trying to demonstrate that diversity in the genetic makeup of grizzly bears compared to humans is irrelevant. It seems you agree.

My model, which you doubt I possess, but anyway, my model says that you get reduced GENETIC diversity with the formation of new phenotypes.

I'm not going to get picky about whether your concept is actually a model until you write a scientific paper describing the concept. You are free to take up that issue with whoever raised it. What I will suggest is that I've already provided several examples that indicate that your concept does not model the processes which are claimed to be part of the theory of evolution.

I agree that under your 'model' that evolution is impossible. On the other hand, your 'model' is little more than an assertion that evolution cannot happen.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 2:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 03-02-2013 11:17 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 1034 (692291)
03-01-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Taq
03-01-2013 2:56 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Every person is born with a human genome that has never existed before in the history of the universe (excluding identical twins, of course).

Perhaps this exception for 'identical' twins is not universal

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=identica...

quote:
Geneticist Carl Bruder of the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and his colleagues closely compared the genomes of 19 sets of adult identical twins. In some cases, one twin's DNA differed from the other's at various points on their genomes. At these sites of genetic divergence, one bore a different number of copies of the same gene, a genetic state called copy number variants.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2013 5:30 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6604
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 213 of 1034 (692295)
03-01-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
03-01-2013 5:13 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Also, whilst identical twins look, well, identical, they have different fingerprints.

Faith's nonsense apart, I'm pretty convinced that when we actually begin to really understand molecular genetics - at the moment we really know zip, compared to what there is to be known.- we'll find that a lot of our current ideas about evolution and what we call a species is pretty crude


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2013 5:13 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 1034 (692296)
03-01-2013 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Taq
03-01-2013 2:56 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
If you KNOW they are mutations and not just normal variations thrown up by sexual recombination then it would be enormous truly novel diversity,

We do know this. We have sequenced the genomes of parents and their children. The children have mutations in their genome that are not found in either parent.

Here we present, to our knowledge, the first direct comparative analysis of male and female germline mutation rates from the complete genome sequences of two parent-offspring trios.

What does "germline" mean?

Through extensive validation, we identified 49 and 35 germline de novo mutations (DNMs) in two trio offspring, as well as 1,586 non-germline DNMs arising either somatically or in the cell lines from which the DNA was derived.

Some people here have trouble understanding MY pretty basic genetic terminology so you really need to explain the stuff you are quoting here.

What is a "trio" offspring?

Nothing here tells me how these novel (de novo) "mutations" are known to BE mutations, that is, brand new genetic something-or-others that are truly novel as opposed to merely new combinations of old alleles, and in fact WHAT they are is also not identified. Are they alleles for genes or what are they?

Most strikingly, in one family, we observed that 92% of germline DNMs were from the paternal germline, whereas, in contrast, in the other family, 64% of DNMs were from the maternal germline.
http://www.nature.com/...f/ng.862.pdf%3FWT.ec_id%3DNG-201107

I have NO idea what difference it could possibly make to this discussion whether a "DNM," which is still a mysterious entity to me, is from the maternal or paternal "germline" which is also a mysterious entity.

We analyzed the whole genome sequences of a family of four, consisting of two siblings and their parents. Family-based sequencing allowed us to delineate recombination sites precisely, identify 70% of the sequencing errors, and identify very rare SNVs.

What is an SNV?

We also directly estimated a human intergeneration mutation rate of ¡­1.1¡¿10-8 per position per haploid genome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037280/

Means absolutely zip to me.

There is no reason to think that these families are the exception. There is every expectation that every child is born with mutations.

And again nothing is said to clearly identify these whatever-they-ares AS mutations, OR to identify WHAT they do, what genes they affect, what traits, etc. etc etc.

So yes, we do know that these numbers are about right. In the very large current human population we are getting hundreds of billions of mutations per generation that did not exist in the generation before them. Every person is born with a human genome that has never existed before in the history of the universe (excluding identical twins, of course).

I'm afraid this entire post adds up to nothing but Mystification of a bullying sort.

Care to try again?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2013 6:18 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 1034 (692297)
03-01-2013 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Taq
03-01-2013 12:31 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
More to the point, can you show that the mutations that have occurred in humans over the last 100 years are all detrimental or neutral? We are talking about billions of mutations, and I doubt that you have checked them all.

Of course not, it's part of my model as your interpretations are of yours. My model IS internally consistent.

Are the phenotypic differences between chimps and humans beneficial to both chimps and humans?

Huh?

Are those differences in phenotypes due to differences in DNA sequence?

WHAT differences? Between chimps and humans? I suppose so.

The conclusion seems obvious to me. Changes in DNA sequence can and do result in beneficial phenotypes. Mutations are observed to change DNA sequence.

Changes in DNA sequence include changes from simple sexual recombination of alleles, not necessarily and not even predominantly from mutations.

And it's really disingenuous of you to imply that all change in DNA sequence is beneficial when that's what is in question. Mutations change DNA sequence, the question is to what effect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 12:31 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1862 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 216 of 1034 (692299)
03-01-2013 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
02-27-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Mutations Can Add Something That Could Rescue the ToE

...the Bible underlies my interest in pursuing this line of reasoning, I'm using ONLY what I've learned from EVOLUTIONIST SCIENCE in the actual argument itself.

I admire ou loyalty to what you think is to the service of God since you interpret the Bible the same as the churches taught for 500 years now.
I too support the Bible and believe what I understand it to say, while having faith in Christ which is an euphemism for Truth.

But I must again point to the mutation of the fused chromosomes in man when the ape surrogate mother gave birth to the first human.
You have not used this in support of the other side here, that that mutation demonstrates a singular case and example of mutations increasing diversity.

As I pointed out to you elsewhere, the research now even supports that what changed in accord with that mutation was Intelligence, the most obvious and singularly well understood difference between the Apes and Humans.

"Recent studies suggest that genes on chromosome 2 may play an important role in human intelligence:"

A Linkage Study of Academic Skills Defined by the Queensland
Core Skills Test

Mark A. Wainwright,1,2,3 Margaret J. Wright,1 Michelle Luciano,1 Grant W. Montgomery,1
Gina M. Geffen,2 and Nicholas G. Martin1
Received 18 Apr. 2005—Final 15 Aug. 2005

This study used genome-wide linkage analysis to detect Quantitative Trait Loci (QTLs) implicated in variation in general academic achievement as measured by the Queensland Core Skills Test (QCST) (Queensland Studies Authority, 2004).

While no empirically derived significant or suggestive peaks for general academic achievement were indicated, a peak on chromosome 2 was observed in a region where Posthuma et al.

(2005) reported significant linkage for Performance IQ (PIQ) and suggestive linkage for Full Scale IQ (FSIQ), and Luciano et al. (this issue) observed significant linkage for PIQ and word reading.

In addition, on chromosomes 2 and 18 peaks for a number of specific academic skills, two of which were suggestive, coincided with the general academic achievement peaks.

The findings suggest that variation in general academic achievement is influenced by genes on chromosome 2 which have broad influence on a variety of cognitive abilities.

http://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/CV453.pdf


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 02-27-2013 12:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3752
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 217 of 1034 (692300)
03-01-2013 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
03-01-2013 5:38 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
What does "germline" mean?

Reproductive cells. Sperm and egg. As differentiated from somatic cells which are the ones making up the rest of your body - skin, bone, nerve, muscle, etc.

What is a "trio" offspring?

They studied two "trios" each consisting of mom, dad and kid. Two different families.

I have NO idea what difference it could possibly make to this discussion whether a "DNM," which is still a mysterious entity to me, is from the maternal or paternal "germline" which is also a mysterious entity.

DNM is "de novo mutation". One that appeared in the kid but was not present in either of the parents. These mutations are base-pair differences in the gene (allele) between parent and kid.

The kid has a brand new, never before seen allele that was not a part of either parent's genome.

What is an SNV?

Single Nucleotide Variation. A nucleotide is one of those letters we use to describe a gene sequence, A,T,C, G and sometimes U.

So the kid had an allele that differed from the parent's allele by one letter.

human intergeneration mutation rate of ¡­1.1¡¿10-8 per position per haploid genome.

Science speak for saying that for any letter in the genome there is a .0000011 that letter will change in the next generation. Over the entire gennome of billions of letters that comes out to be about 40 mutations per person per generation.

And again nothing is said to clearly identify these whatever-they-ares AS mutations, OR to identify WHAT they do, what genes they affect, what traits, etc. etc etc.

You're right. They don't. A single mutation does not require a change in phenotypic trait. The vast majority do nothing. Generations later in combination with other mutations there may be a difference.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 5:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 6:26 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 1034 (692301)
03-01-2013 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by NoNukes
03-01-2013 12:33 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I would say that the odds favor its having been latent in the gene pool and then brought to expression in a combination that's rare for that gene pool through mere sexual recombination.

I recall you saying that your knowledge of genetics is rudimentary.

"Rudimentary" doesn't mean "wrong" you know. No, apparently you don't know that. But you sure do wish it were so and your wishing MAKES it so doesn't it?

I would have to take the above as a mere statement of belief and not an argument or any kind of informed statement of opinion.

Of course you would, you have no ability to think this stuff through. You keep missing essential points of the argument.

Yes I understand that the argument I'm facing here involves the claim that breeding methods don't model evolution in the wild, but it IS my argument that the principles are the same no matter who or what is doing the selecting.

Let's consider your proposition for a bit, because it seems that distinguishing between breeding and speciation is the single issue here. Perhaps you can at least appreciate why others are reasonable in giving your idea fairly short shrift.

Oh I believe I understand that very well, it's called Paradigm Blindness or Evolutionist Bias or in your case inability to distinguish between genotype and phenotype among other things.

But do carry on.

A border collie breeder is going to reject offspring that doesn't fit a very tight description of what constitutes a border collie. We would expect that when the breeder is successful, the resultant pups would not possess any visible or behavioral variant traits that don't meet the border collie specification. And yet even the rejected dogs are of the same subspecies Canis lupus familiaris as the acceptable collies.

Yaaawwn.

By contrast, natural selection doesn't act on traits that don't affect survival to sire/bear/rear puppies. This means that the end product of evolution can produce a population having tremendous variation.

Again you are using a word -- "variation" -- that suggests you have no clue what I'm talking about, a word that applies to the PHENOTYPE, not the GENOTYPE. But if by some unlikely chance you are talking about genetic diversity it has nothing to do with the "end product of evolution" which only comes about after many such population splitting events.

Of COURSE you can have a subpopulation that retains a high level of genetic diversity. I've clarified that a few times in this thread already.

Even if you maintain a fairly high level of genetic diversity in a particular population, nevertheless the production of a new subspecies REQUIRES reduced genetic diversity to whatever extent RELATIVE to the former population. You can get new subspecies from populations with high genetic diversity that also have relatively high genetic diversity as I've tried to clarify from time to time here. I'm talking about a TREND to reducing genetic diversity with each new subspecies.

Any mutation that does not affect survival will not be selected against. There is no end goal to make a dog having any exact specification.

Gee whillikers, ya don't say. Yaaawn.

Evolution over hundreds of thousands of generations or more is what produced almost all of the variation in the animals that constitute the single sub species that we call dog. Note that the dog sub species includes huge variation.

Oh fiddly foo. DOGS ARE A SPECIES, NOT A SUBSPECIES. But there ARE subspecies OF dogs. All it takes in nature is some geographic isolations of separated portions of the dog gene pool to produce separate variations OF DOGS, which again are a Species in themselves and not a subspecies, and each of those dog subspecies probably DOES include -- oh that miserable word again "variation" You really don't know what you are talking about. Yes, Dogs as a Species have HUGE GENETIC DIVERSITY and through their subspecies phenotypic variation in the wild TOO, though a lot more in breeding programs. Do you have ANY idea what I'm talking about?

Yet in just a few generations, a breeder can produce a tight specification like a border collie. Surely that's ample evidence that evolution and breeding do not work the same at least in the way relevant for this discussion.

Sigh. I don't know if your contribution here is confusing the subject beyond what should be tolerated or is an opportunity to make needed clarifications. Really hard to tell since former clarifications don't seem to have gotten through.

Yes, breeding can accomplish a lot of change in a very short time. That doesn't stop the PRINCIPLES involved from also applying to selection events in nature through different agents and different kinds of events, particularly randomness, and usually at a much slower pace of course. Please, I've explained this so much here and yet you aren't getting even the most basic things I've said, though you think you need to explain the basics to me. Yaaaawwwn.

Absent a showing or argument that different selection methods employing different selection criteria and operating over vastly different time scales produce the exactly the same result, the idea that breeding and evolution processes operate the same is unreasonable.

They all increase phenotypic variation by reducing genetic diversity. The time factor is irrelevant, the principles are the same.

In particular, over and expanded period of time, we can anticipate generating some beneficial mutations randomly. In the time period over which man breeds animals, we would not expect that to happen.

And that's ALL you have, those imaginary beneficial mutations. That's the ONLY difference here, the rest of this post just misses the point completely.

And I've also answered the mutations claim over and over and over and over and over.

Yaaaawn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2013 12:33 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2013 6:45 PM Faith has not yet responded
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 Message 242 by Percy, posted 03-02-2013 9:48 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 1034 (692302)
03-01-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by AZPaul3
03-01-2013 6:18 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
I KNOW DNM stands for De Novo Mutation. He SAID that much. That was NOT my question.

But I need another cup of tea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2013 6:18 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3752
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 220 of 1034 (692303)
03-01-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
03-01-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Well, you did say DNM was a mysterious entity to you so I thought you were asking what it was.

Were the rest of your questions answered adequately?

No need to answer now. Enjoy the tea first. I'm having a nice cabernet myself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 221 of 1034 (692306)
03-01-2013 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
03-01-2013 6:24 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Rudimentary" doesn't mean "wrong" you know. No, apparently you don't know that. But you sure do wish it were so and your wishing MAKES it so doesn't it?

I apologize for the lack of precision caused by my attempt to be tactful. Your presentation here suggests that you know 'jack doodly squat' about genetics. Your personal statements of doubt about how mutations contributed to evolution are of zero persuasive weight.

Is that better?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 222 of 1034 (692311)
03-01-2013 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by AZPaul3
03-01-2013 3:50 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Faith writes:

If the new trait occurs only in the individual and is not selected it may stay in the population and be passed on to other individuals but it will not contribute to the formation of new species.

AZPaul3 writes:

If a new trait (allele) occurs only in the individual (which, of course, it must) and is not selected for then it cannot stay in the population since it cannot be passed on.

Faith's statement while badly phrased, gets at some truth that isn't expressed in your statement. If a new trait occurs in one individual, it can still be passed to offspring without being selected for. As long as the trait is not subject to purifying or negative selection, the trait can drift through the population without contributing to speciation, at least until something changes the status of the trait from neutral to beneficial or deleterious.

Traits are not individually selected for or against. Only the full genome of an individual can be subject to selection.

Excellent point. I don't recall anyone else has stated this as clearly.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2013 3:50 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2013 8:57 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 223 of 1034 (692319)
03-01-2013 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
03-01-2013 5:52 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Of course not, it's part of my model as your interpretations are of yours. My model IS internally consistent.

What is part of your model? Could you be specific?

Are beneficial mutations part of your model?

Also, I could care less if your model is internally consistent. What we are curious about is if it is consistent with the facts. The facts are that each person is born with 50 or so mutations. In a population of billions that is hundreds of billions of mutations in every generation. How does this NOT create genetic diversity?

Huh?

Chimps and humans are different. In those places where we are different, are those differences beneficial to each species? For example, a chimp has a much more robust wrist compared to humans. This allows the chimp to hang from branches and knuckle walk. In humans, the wrist is less robust and much more flexible. This allows us to use tools and have fine motor control in our hands.

Are these differences beneficial to each species? I would say yes.

Changes in DNA sequence include changes from simple sexual recombination of alleles, not necessarily and not even predominantly from mutations.

Are there combinations of chimp genes that can produce a human? I would say no. The only explanation is a change in sequence due to mutations in the alleles, not different combinations of alleles.

And it's really disingenuous of you to imply that all change in DNA sequence is beneficial when that's what is in question. Mutations change DNA sequence, the question is to what effect.

I never said that all mutations are beneficial. Nowhere did I say that. However, it is really disingenuous of you to imply that no change in DNA can be beneficial when obviously they can as a comparison of the human and chimp genomes illustrates. We can find the DNA that they share through common ancestry, and then find the mutations that have occurred in each lineage. We can also find the signal of negative selection in genes by comparing the rate of non-synonymous to synonymous mutations. We can see that deleterious mutations have been selected out of each lineage as they evolved.

The dishonesty of your model is that it ignores the reality of mutations. It is inconsistent with reality. In reality, mutations increase genetic diversity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 5:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 224 of 1034 (692320)
03-01-2013 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
03-01-2013 6:24 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Even if you maintain a fairly high level of genetic diversity in a particular population, nevertheless the production of a new subspecies REQUIRES reduced genetic diversity to whatever extent RELATIVE to the former population.

After the strong selection event or population bottleneck the non-stop accumulation of mutations increases genetic diversity over time. Not only that, but different mutations will accumulate in different subpopulations adding to the overall diversity of the clade.

And that's ALL you have, those imaginary beneficial mutations.

There is your bias again. We already know that these beneficial mutations exist. A comparison of the human and chimp genome shows us that these beneficial mutations exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 03-01-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3752
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 225 of 1034 (692329)
03-01-2013 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
03-01-2013 7:16 PM


Re: Mutations Don't Add Anything That Could Rescue the ToE
Faith's statement while badly phrased, gets at some truth that isn't expressed in your statement. If a new trait occurs in one individual, it can still be passed to offspring without being selected for.

I disagree. If a new allele arises it can only be passed on if the whole of the individual is selected for. Even a bad gene can be passed on if the whole genome of the individual allows it to pass through natural selection and breed. A most excellent mutation will be stopped dead if it pops up first in an individual whose remaining genome causes the individual to get caught in the sieve of natural selection.

All changes, whether a new mix of alleles or a mutation to some alleles, whether good, bad or neutral, are at the mercy of the whole genome's combined ability to breed.

Thanks, NoNukes, for the kind words. I'll try to be worthy of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2013 7:16 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by sfs, posted 03-01-2013 9:50 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 229 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2013 10:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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