Testing Baramins Through Comparison of Genomes

What I would like to do in this thread is test the concept of baramins using genetic comparisons. I would also like to use humans and the great apes (chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) as our two model baramins. What I plan to show is that the baramin model makes predictions that are falsified by the actual genome data while the evolutionary model makes accurate predictions.I am defining a baramin as a complete set of descendants that share a common ancestral gene pool.To this end, I need creationists to give us a model to work with. From my understanding, this is what the current baramin model looks like. We have the great apes in one baramin, an they share a single common ancestor. We also have humans who also share a common ancestor, but not the same ancestor as that shared by the great apes.Is this correct?Preferred forum: Biological EvolutionEdited by Taq, : No reason given.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Definition of baramin added to opening post.Added by edit: I am also asking creationists/IDer's to establish which species are in which baramin so that the goal posts do not get changed later on in the discussion. This is a very important requirement for this thread, IMHO. I have offered one possible scenario where the great apes are in one baramin and humans are in another. If there is agreement, or tacit agreement over a long period of time, then I can move on to how we can test these relationships using genetic comparisons.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Not sure. Does anyone know if they found this chromosome fusion in the neanderthal genome?Also, there are modern humans who have even fewer chromosomes. Fusions continue to happen in the human population, and I see no reason why the chromosomal fusion had to occur before or after the emergence of anatomically modern humans. For the comparisons I will be making it really won't be a factor anyway.

You are wrong on both counts, and I will show why when we have a consensus of the creationist baramin model as it applies to humans and great apes.Also, there are humans with 22 pairs of chromosomes and they are perfectly healthy and can have children of their own.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Ask a Geneticist | The Tech Interactive In this case, the man is perfectly healthy and fertile. Humans can now have 44 or 46 chromosomes.

You are missing the point entirely. The question is not how intelligence evolved in humans. The topic is testing baramins by comparing genomes. IOW, testing for relationships between the groups. Obviously, the other great apes did not evolve our level of intelligence but we are still discussing their relatedness.

I think it is counterproductive to wait on creationists to commit to a great ape baramin so we will move forward with this image found at Objective: Ministries OBJECTIVE: Creation Education | BaraminologyThey obviously have the different races of man in one baramin and the great apes in another as suggested in the opening post. So let's move one from that point.This is where I will introduce a very simple yet important concept: mutations do not move between species. A mutation that happens in a chimp does not automatically appear in the human population. The two baramins are genetically isolated so mutations that happen in one baramin stay in that baramin. This is especially true for neutral mutations.So what is our launching off point for the two baramins? The two common ancestors for each baramin: the common ancestral population for the great apes and the common ancestral population for humans (Adam and Eve?). At that point there is a set amount of genetic differences between each population, between the common ancestors of the apes and the common ancestors of humans.Now each baramin starts to accumulate mutations, and in the case of the apes they split into three species (we are lumping chimps and bonobos). However, nowhere in the process do mutations flow between the two baramins. This means that the two baramins must drift apart as they accumulate different mutations. More importantly, ALL of the ape species will drift away from humans more or less equally when making comparisons across the entire genome.This is a concept called genetic equidistance. This is a process whereby entire clades continue to drift apart after they a split, but in this case they started separately. The concept still applies, however.So, if the baramin claim is true we can make a very solid prediction. When we compare genomes between apes and humans we should see an equal number of differences between humans and any one of the ape species.On the other hand, if the evolutionary claims of humans being within the ape clade are true, then we should see that humans are more closely related to chimps than to gorillas, and even more distantly related to orangutans.So which model makes the correct prediction? The evolutionary model. The baramin model is clearly falsified by the genome comparisons.This is why we know that the baramin model is false.

You are missing the point entirely. The topic is about the relatedness between apes and humans, not how intelligence evolved. Perhaps my post above will make my points clearer.