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Author Topic:   The Nature of Scepticism
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3842 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 151 of 271 (692523)
03-04-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Straggler
03-04-2013 12:31 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Kof writes:
Seeing is believing
Straggler:
That would be nave empiricism.
You need review the meaning of Empiricism, first.
And then, yes, as you expand upon the simple meaning of relying upon observation, not naive at all,... we can/could add many of the sophisticated reassurances that confirm that we are, indeed, seeing what we thought we saw, like asking peers to review the experiement.
Nevertheless, Empiricism is exactly what I said it is:
empiricism /emˈpirəˌsizəm/
Noun
1.The theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience.
2.Practice based on experiment and observation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 12:31 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2013 1:08 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 152 of 271 (692524)
03-04-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by kofh2u
03-04-2013 12:50 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
Kof writes:
The very heart of modern physics is this threat to the initial science axiom, of Cause/Effect.
As I have already partially explained quantum mechanics has already done away with the notion that the sort of cause and effect that one arrives at from everyday experience applies universally.
And it doesn't make sense to say that science has invalidated the axioms science itself is dervied from does it?
All of which suggests that such assumptions aren't really axioms at all. The things you are calling axioms sound more like hypotheses - Assumptions to be tested against observed reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by kofh2u, posted 03-04-2013 12:50 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 153 of 271 (692525)
03-04-2013 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by kofh2u
03-04-2013 12:59 PM


Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
You actually said "seeing is believing".....
Which would be naive empiricism.
And you still haven't explained how the more reliable (and still developing) approach to empiricism I outlined could all be incorporated into an axiom (or few) have you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by kofh2u, posted 03-04-2013 12:59 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3842 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 154 of 271 (692526)
03-04-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-15-2013 1:54 PM


...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Straggler:
"that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true". - Bertrand Russell, Introduction to Sceptical Essays
1) Is this an accurate reflection of scepticism?
2) Is it the approach taken by science?
3) Is it paradoxical and subversive?
Now after having brought you up to this point, in regard to what constitutes "grounds,"...
... I answer your OP again.
Russell ignored the necessity incumbent upon himself, to agree to some axiomatic discipline wherein his scepticism could be put to the test of a Proof.
Hence,
1) No, it is not.
2) No, it is not.
3) Yes, it is paradoxical that Russell would suggest he is sceptical while ignoring the reason we have developed disciplines exactly for the purpose of showing people like him how reasoning can establish truth.
An yes, it is subversive to humanity to support the contention that everything can be doubted at a personal and subjective level simply because one refuses to ground his thinking in one or another of the disciplines of Knowledge.
That is to subvert the very premise that we can think our way through life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-15-2013 1:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 7:51 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 271 (692573)
03-05-2013 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by kofh2u
03-04-2013 1:11 PM


Re: ...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Kof writes:
Russell ignored the necessity incumbent upon himself, to agree to some axiomatic discipline wherein his scepticism could be put to the test of a Proof.
Why are you so obsessed with axiomatic disciplines?
As you yourself have pointed out calling one’s assumptions axioms has absolutely no bearing on whether they, or the conclusions derived from them, remotely conform or even particularly relate to reality. In fact most of the axioms you have put forward would be better described as failed hypotheses (Ptolemy’s model, everyday notions of cause and effect etc. etc.) So why bother obsessing over these axioms at all?
Furthermore your attempts to show that science is axiomatic have fallen flat. Thus providing grounds for significant scepticism towards your assertion.
Kof writes:
Yes, it is paradoxical that Russell would suggest he is sceptical while ignoring the reason we have developed disciplines exactly for the purpose of showing people like him how reasoning can establish truth.
I don't think you have understood what he is saying. Here is another Bertie quote:
quote:
"To my mind the essential thing is that one should base one's arguments upon the kind of grounds that are accepted in science, and one should not regard anything that one accepts as quite certain, but only as probable in a greater or a less degree. Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by kofh2u, posted 03-04-2013 1:11 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by kofh2u, posted 03-05-2013 11:22 AM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 271 (692584)
03-05-2013 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by kofh2u
03-03-2013 1:05 PM


Re: Absolute Truth is an oxymoron...
kofh2u writes:
ringo writes:
Only what we can model matters.
It mattered to Neanderthal man who went extinct because of his inability to see the Truth.
That prevented him from adapting to the changing environment.
You make my point. Neanderthal man failed to model the truth. The existence of "Truth" did him no good.
Skepticism is all about tweaking your model, not thinking you already have the "Truth".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by kofh2u, posted 03-03-2013 1:05 PM kofh2u has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by RAZD, posted 04-14-2013 7:31 PM ringo has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3842 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 157 of 271 (692585)
03-05-2013 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straggler
03-05-2013 7:51 AM


Re: ...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Why would/should one care what his adversary in this discussion thinks about the arguments that corrected you in every case?
I consider the matter closed from this side, and you may wallow in your attempts to resurrect any face serving come backs, imho.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 7:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2013 11:35 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 158 of 271 (692591)
03-05-2013 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by kofh2u
03-05-2013 11:22 AM


Re: ...so, then, "grounds" ARE what count...
Kof writes:
Why would/should one care what his adversary in this discussion thinks about the arguments that corrected you in every case?
Dude - You're funny.
How do you know you are correct? What axioms are you deriving this conclusion from..........?
Kof writes:
I consider the matter closed from this side, and you may wallow in your attempts to resurrect any face serving come backs, imho.
Then I guess congratulations are in order.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by kofh2u, posted 03-05-2013 11:22 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 271 (696329)
04-14-2013 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
02-26-2013 4:42 AM


Re: not convinced
On your own scale this is where brain damage caused by ethereal elephants would come. Yes?
Yes, ... and your opinions depend on your world view. Different people will have different opinions.
Does your open-minded approach allow us to distinguish between opinion 1 and opinion 2 in terms of either one being any more or less rational than the other?
RAZ writes:
And I remain unconvinced that there is a determinable risk at this time.
I am not interested in how personally convinced you are that there is any determinable risk
Without a determinable risk there is no rational choice but to wait for more information.
Does your open-minded approach allow us to distinguish between opinion 1 and opinion 2 in terms of either one being any more or less rational than the other?
Strictly speaking the answer is no.
But again, you are free to have a personal opinion and act on that.
Enjoy
(I been sick, but I don't believe it is an ethereal elephants epidemic )

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 02-26-2013 4:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 04-15-2013 5:24 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 160 of 271 (696330)
04-14-2013 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Straggler
02-26-2013 6:52 AM


Re: Confidence Scale
Where, on this scale, can we place ourselves with regard to the confidence we have in the validity of the scale itself?
Interesting question -- what gives us confidence in anything?
Does this rely on objective application of discrete criteria, or is it subjective -- ie, would different people reach the same conclusion?
How do we know what is "true" in any concept?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Straggler, posted 02-26-2013 6:52 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 04-15-2013 5:47 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 161 of 271 (696331)
04-14-2013 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
03-05-2013 11:20 AM


an observation
Skepticism is all about tweaking your model, not thinking you already have the "Truth".
What causes us to tweak the model?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 03-05-2013 11:20 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 04-15-2013 11:57 AM RAZD has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 162 of 271 (696345)
04-15-2013 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by RAZD
04-14-2013 6:55 PM


Re: not convinced
RAZ writes:
Different people will have different opinions.
But with regard to safegaurding my children's brains I am not interested in mere opinion. I want to take the safest rational course of action as per my stated criteria:
[1] I want to safeguard my children from suffering brain damage.
[2] I want to act in a manner that is rational.
So - What is the safest rational course of action according to your approach? This is what I want to know.
RAZ writes:
Without a determinable risk there is no rational choice but to wait for more information.
Just waiting to see if my children become brain damaged is not a sensible approach to the predicament at hand. If this is the only rational course of action according to your approach then your approach is practically useless for any situation where the potential consequences of inaction are dire.
Straggler writes:
  • Opinion 1: Brain damage due to the inaudible trumpeting of ethereal elephants congregating in the garden is a realistic proposition and action should be taken to avoid damage to my children's brains (i.e. I should evacuate my children to a gardenless place)
  • Opinion 2: Brain damage due to the inaudible trumpeting of ethereal elephants congregating in the garden is not a realistic proposition and there is no need to take any practical action to avoid it.
    Does your open-minded approach allow us to distinguish between opinion 1 and opinion 2 in terms of either one being any more or less rational than the other?
  • RAZ writes:
    Strictly speaking the answer is no.
    Why not?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by RAZD, posted 04-14-2013 6:55 PM RAZD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2013 6:59 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 163 of 271 (696346)
    04-15-2013 5:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by RAZD
    04-14-2013 7:03 PM


    Unconvinced
    On it's own terms we cannot have any confidence in the legitimacy of your scale of confidence.
    Similarly by the terms of your wider argument we must take an 'unconvinced' position towards your wider argument.
    RAZD writes:
    And yet I really do not have sufficient information to enable me to decide (your definition), and I remain unconvinced (my definition) as a result.
    question
     |
     is there sufficient valid
     information available to decide
     | |
     yes no
     | |
     decide based is a
     on empirical decision
     valid evidence necessary?
     (A) / \
     yes no ... but ...
     / | |
     decide why make a
     based on decide decision
    inadequate at this anyway
     evidence time? based on
     = guess = wait = opinion
     (B) (C) (D)
    RAZ writes:
    Now if you really feel that a decision is necessary, then you end up at (B) and make a guess based on your worldview opinions\biases\etc rather than on verifiable objective evidence.
    Is the position you are advocating in this thread derived from verifiable objective evidence?
    Is the position you are advocating in his thread a guess? Are you convinced or unconvinced by your arguments in this thread?
    For the record - I am unconvinced.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by RAZD, posted 04-14-2013 7:03 PM RAZD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 169 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2013 7:09 PM Straggler has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 434 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 164 of 271 (696358)
    04-15-2013 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 161 by RAZD
    04-14-2013 7:31 PM


    Re: an observation
    RAZD writes:
    ringo writes:
    Skepticism is all about tweaking your model, not thinking you already have the "Truth".
    What causes us to tweak the model?
    The desire to have a better model.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by RAZD, posted 04-14-2013 7:31 PM RAZD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 168 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2013 7:03 PM ringo has replied

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member (Idle past 306 days)
    Posts: 16113
    Joined: 07-20-2006


    Message 165 of 271 (696359)
    04-15-2013 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 148 by kofh2u
    03-04-2013 11:50 AM


    Re: ... Fundamentalist are those who refuse to acknowledge evidence...
    Socrates, of course, doubted that postulate and said, "Belive nothing you hear and only half of what you see."
    Reference, please?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 148 by kofh2u, posted 03-04-2013 11:50 AM kofh2u has not replied

      
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