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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 301 of 1034 (692545)
03-04-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by nwr
03-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Faith is done with this thread ???
I think this blog post O O O That Evo ha looshinist Mizrabul Buh-loosyist Cantwinferlosinist Ra-ag
can be taken to indicate withdrawal of Faith from further participation.
And not one mention of mutations anywhere in the blog post. Go figure.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 302 of 1034 (692546)
03-04-2013 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by nwr
03-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Faith is done with this thread ???
She's still pretending that the layers in the Grand Canyon are "tabletop flat" too. I just hope she never takes up carpentry.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 303 of 1034 (692547)
03-04-2013 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Percy
03-04-2013 5:23 PM


Re: Some answers...
I do think that breeding for specific traits reduces diversity.
Yes, a breed does have less diversity than the rest of the species. But breeding does not create species or lower the diversity in the species.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 5:23 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 8:47 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 304 of 1034 (692548)
03-04-2013 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Percy
03-04-2013 5:23 PM


Re: Some answers...
Both Faith and Bolder-dash seemed to have left in huffs that bear a strong resemblance to flops.
Bolder is in a permanent huffy state. I have no idea how he feels about Faith's arguments.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 5:23 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 8:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 305 of 1034 (692550)
03-04-2013 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by nwr
03-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Faith is done with this thread ???
Hi nwr,
Thanks for the link - very interesting. Faith included this chart from Wikipedia's article on Peripatric Speciation as evidence that reduced genetic variation leads to speciation:
She doesn't seem to realize that the four types of speciation listed across the top, allopatric, peripatric, parapatric and sympatric, all require mutation. The line that says "Evolution of reproductive isolation" is where mutations, allele remixing and selection occur. She would have realized that if she were using the proper definition of evolution when interpreting the chart.
Unfortunately Faith wants to be right more than she wants to understand what is true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by nwr, posted 03-04-2013 6:06 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 306 of 1034 (692551)
03-04-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by NoNukes
03-04-2013 7:43 PM


Re: Some answers...
NoNukes writes:
Bolder is in a permanent huffy state. I have no idea how he feels about Faith's arguments.
He defended her over at General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') (see Message 696), saying that, "Her theory is no less scientifically verified than is the great theory you proselytize."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by NoNukes, posted 03-04-2013 7:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 307 of 1034 (692552)
03-04-2013 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by NoNukes
03-04-2013 6:48 PM


Re: Some answers...
NoNukes writes:
Yes, a breed does have less diversity than the rest of the species. But breeding does not create species or lower the diversity in the species.
The more I think about it the more I realize that she was being very careful in any replies to me to never mention that she didn't think there's any such thing as speciation. And no matter who she was replying to, she never came out with a non-ambiguous declaration of this belief until the very end with her "dogs are always dogs" comment. Apparently she was trying to sell her ideas in small pieces, I guess hoping they would be more palatable that way.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by NoNukes, posted 03-04-2013 6:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 308 of 1034 (692553)
03-04-2013 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Percy
03-04-2013 8:40 PM


Re: Some answers...
"Her theory is no less scientifically verified than is the great theory you proselytize."
Given BD's oft expressed opinions about the theory of evolution, this would be very faint praise.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 8:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 309 of 1034 (692555)
03-04-2013 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Percy
03-04-2013 8:47 PM


Re: Some answers...
The more I think about it the more I realize that she was being very careful in any replies to me to never mention that she didn't think there's any such thing as speciation
I think you are attributing a strategy to Faith that is beyond her capabilities. Faith did not hide per position; she changed it on the fly. Faith originally stated that breeding was speciation with mutation interfering rather than contributing to speciation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 8:47 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 310 of 1034 (692556)
03-04-2013 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
03-04-2013 8:36 PM


Re: Faith is done with this thread ???
She doesn't seem to realize that the four types of speciation listed across the top, allopatric, peripatric, parapatric and sympatric, all require mutation.
Indeed. And that misunderstanding was obvious from the start of this thread.
I have pretty much stayed out of this thread because, based on similar earlier threads, I did not see much chance of any new understanding.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Percy, posted 03-04-2013 8:36 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 311 of 1034 (692565)
03-05-2013 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by nwr
03-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Faith is done with this thread ???
Hardly a surprise. We can't expect her to be honest and admit that she only had a half-baked idea instead of a real argument. Faith can put up an appearance of being reasonable for a while but her mask always vanishes when she starts losing the argument. Indeed, her behaviour suggests to me that she "wins" in-person arguments by ranting until everyone pretends to agree just to get her to go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by nwr, posted 03-04-2013 6:06 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 312 of 1034 (692624)
03-05-2013 10:52 PM


Faith Rewrites History
Just visited Faith's blog again over at O O O That Evo-ha-looshinist Mizrabul-buh-loozyist Cantwinferlosinist Ra-ag, she has an update. She had earlier posted this:
Faith at her blog writes:
Two things came up toward the end: The first was somebody claiming that the processes of selection I'm describing don't bring about speciation, and I didn't have the presence of mind to refer back to this pretty much classic representation of Speciation from Wikipedia that says otherwise:
After she saw how I described how she was wrong in my Message 305 she then posted this:
The second is the claim that I don't "know" that the various forms of Speciation depicted in the chart I took from Wikipedia "require mutation." Do they really need me to point out that I'm giving a DIFFERENT explanation for all these things, that I REJECT the usual explanation and that my argument includes the reason mutations can't make a difference to the end result?
But obviously when she posted her original claim she didn't "know" the Wikipedia diagram contradicted her views, because as everyone who can read can see, she claimed the diagram supported her views, when of course to anyone who knows the definition of evolution it plainly does not.
Also, I don't think she likes us. After complaining about the rudeness of someone who called her an idiot she goes on:
Faith at her blog writes:
That degree of granite-headed bias can't be penetrated.
...
Meanwhile sticking around for the stupidity...
...
I take back anything I've ever said about how scientists aren't really stupid. Or anybody who believes in Evolution with some knowledge of its claims They really really are really really stupid, blind as bats about the theory, whatever else they may do right.
Internal consistency has never been her strong point.
Faith says she's trying to resist the temptation to check in here:
Got to remind myself never to give in to curiosity enough to go back to EvC and see what idiocies they've been engaged in since I left, but stupidly I did.
I assume that when she checks in again she won't give us the satisfaction of letting us know on her blog, but anyway, I hope she returns to finish the discussion, this time being more forthright about where species come from in her perspective.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 313 of 1034 (692630)
03-06-2013 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Percy
03-05-2013 10:52 PM


Re: Faith Rewrites History
I hope she returns to finish the discussion, this time being more forthright about where species come from in her perspective.
In what sense is this discussion unfinished? I'd suggest reading a bit of Faith's blog if you still believe there is any chance of a productive interchange with Faith on this topic.
About where species come from, uhm, when the mommy variant and the daddy variant really love each other ...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Percy, posted 03-05-2013 10:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 314 of 1034 (692634)
03-06-2013 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Percy
03-05-2013 10:52 PM


Re: Faith Rewrites History
I don't think that there ever was a chance of a productive discussion.
Faith knows perfectly well that she needs an answer to mutation. And she doesn't really have one. It should have been the centrepiece of the discussion. But all we got were vague allusions that she wouldn't explain and never really made sense.
At best she had something that seemed to make sense to her, but that she never really understood.
(And, I will note she has been here to engage in her usual abuse of the message rating system.)

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 315 of 1034 (692723)
03-06-2013 8:13 PM


Jeer bait
I was re-reading the OP and I came across this paragraph.
The problem here is that I've been working on this for something like eight or ten years now and you aren't going to just casually get me to think about some other alternative until you've shown you understand what I'm arguing, which is far from the case at the moment.
Eight to ten years? Really?
I don't know what work Faith could have been doing with her proposal for the last decade; there isn't much depth to her ideas. But a decade is certainly long enough to develop an emotional attachment to a "theory". In this particular case, the "theory" directly supports Faith's religious beliefs which sure increases the attractiveness.
I think Faith is behaving is just like every other crank I've ever run across on the internet. In my experience, it is next to impossible to convince a crank that his/her science is flawed. Any number of people seem to think they are Einstein clerking away in the patent office and about to have their own 1905 miracle year. My general approach when an adult is 'cranking' about something I know a lot about is to be directly, forcefully, and unambiguously discouraging. Cruel to be kind is the only way.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-06-2013 8:31 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 317 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2013 10:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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