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Author
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Topic: Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
Please just produce any quotes you have or differences at the time you post. I'm not going to guess any more.
I just wanted to say I didn't forget this. I found I have more references to Ignatius in another book I have by Westcott. I will post them when I get a chance. The difficulty is that they are in Greek, so I'll need to translate them, that is, to match them up in existing translations (since I can't really translate Greek yet). Edited by Richh, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 265 by purpledawn, posted 02-26-2013 8:14 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 303 of 383 (692417)
03-02-2013 7:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 302 by kofh2u
03-02-2013 10:18 AM
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Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
quote:
You paraphrase what Paul actually said, while Jazzn has attacked Paul as inconsistent because he explicitly opposed the idea of slaves, but failed in Ephesians to re-state his view explicitly again.
I don't think Paul ever opposed slavery. I believe in his eyes there was something worse than human slavery - an evil slave, and something worse than being a master - being an evil master. This does not mean that many morally reprehensible things have not been done by masters (or by slaves for that matter). What do you think about Paul?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 302 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 10:18 AM | | kofh2u has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 304 of 383 (692428)
03-02-2013 11:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 289 by Jazzns
03-01-2013 9:54 AM
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Re: What did Paul expect of Philemon?
quote:
Just poking around the internet I can see that I am not alone. ...and I don't really feel like getting in a reference war over this. It just seems to me, that reading the book of Philemon, as a whole, that you cannot rationally come away from it with the notion that Paul is not asking for Onesimus' freedom. I cannot fathom, not only how you read it otherwise, but to what purpose you could possibly desire to.
I agree - no need to get into a reference war. But as you find you are not alone, so I find that I am not alone either (and I'm sure I could provide references). I mentioned some of the following in previous posts and others have posted some similar thoughts: 1. There is a freedom that transcends our earthly lot. (Even Steven Covey mentions this in Seven Habits of Highly Successful People from some work of Viktor Frankl. I haven't found the source of the quote but I read at least one interesting book of his.) 2. There is a brotherhood that transcends our earthly status (witness the phrase 'a beloved brother' of Philemon in that book). 3. Ending slavery did not end the moral evils that allowed slavery to begin in the first place. (I am not saying that the end of slavery was not a great thing in this country. It improved the situation with respect to that issue). 4. There is Paul's teaching in several epistles that: a. There is something worse than to be a slave - to be an evil slave. b. There is something worse than to be a master - to be an evil master. Edited by Richh, : Fixed a number
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 289 by Jazzns, posted 03-01-2013 9:54 AM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 305 by Jazzns, posted 03-04-2013 10:32 AM | | Richh has replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
I don't agree with his conclusion here. There is an interplay of the pronouns 'you' and 'we', and words like 'both', etc. in chapters 1 - 3 that clearly indicate to me that the writer (Paul I say...) had two groups in mind - the Jews and the Gentiles, and that he grouped himself with the Jews. I think quotes like the following clinch it that the writer is Jewish. The pronouns would have been different if the writer was speaking as a Gentile.
I disagree. I feel the writer is being neutral. IMO, Ephesians 2:15 is a good reason not to accept that Ephesians was written by Paul. In the writings considered to be authentically Paul, Paul does not support that God's laws in the Old Testament were abolished. His point was that they were not a means to salvation. He did argue that the Gentile Christian converts should not be burdened with all the laws of Judaism.
How about these verses in Epheisans 3 (my bold):
NAS Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, I can't imagine anyone but a Jewish person writing like this about the Gentiles. These verses are 'Jew first' verses just like many in Romans. I grew up in the Midwest and did not even know any Jews until I was in college. I became a Christian when I was in college and neither before or after that event did I ever consider the 'revealed mystery' to be 'the Gentiles are fellow heirs.' If I thought at all I wondered where Jews could fit in. I was all 'Gentile first'. Ephesians, as Romans, was written by a Jew, by an early apostle. I can't see how it could be otherwise. Who else would have a 'Jew first' vision like that. After the temple was destroyed in AD 70, after the early days, this 'joining of Jew and Gentile' ceased to be a central issue. Regarding the interpretation of 2:15, I have been thinking about that too, probably even since our discussions in the 'Christian Laws' forum topic. The words regarding the law used in this verse sound pretty categorical. Two of the three words are used in Romans 7:12. NAS Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. The third word in ‘dogma’ in Greek. The word dogma (ordinance) in the New Testament never means anything else than statute, decree, ordinance.’ Word Studies in the Greek New Testament by Wuest. Alford translates it: ‘having done away with the law of decretory commandments.’ So it is hard to take it in any way than referring to the whole law. I think this is one of the many divine paradoxes in the Bible, like God's soverignty and man's free will (both of which I believe exist) and I think it can be expalined. I like Wuest’s note on the meaning of ‘done away’ or ‘abolished.’ The word abolished is karargeo, to render inoperative. Expositors says: Farther statement of the way in which Christ by His death on the Cross removed the separation and the hostile feeling between Jew and Gentile, namely by abrogating the dividing law itself. The law is now introduced, and the term 'the law' is to be taken in its full sense, not the ceremonial law only, but the Mosaic law as a whole, according to the stated use of the phrase. This law is abolished in the sense of being rendered inoperative. I think some verses in Romans and Galatians show this same thought. There are phrases like 'not under law', 'freed from the law', 'dead to the law', 'discharged from the law', 'the end of the law' and 'the things which I have destroyed.' Romans 7:6 uses the same word karargo. So, I believe the concept is the same in Romans and Galatians, and Romans even uses the same Greek word in chapter 7. We are freed from the law as the principle by which righteousness is obtained, but its 'righteous requirement' is still fulfilled in us 'who walk not according to the flesh, but accoring to the spirit.' That is the message of Romans 6 - 8.
RcV Romans 6:14 For sin will not lord it over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. 6:15 What then? Should we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? Absolutely not! 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law lords it over the man as long as he lives? 7:2 For the married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he is living; but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law regarding the husband. 7:3 So then if, while the husband is living, she is joined to another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man. 7:4 So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions for sins, which acted through the law, operated in our members to bear fruit to death. 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. 8:3 For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 8:4 That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. Galatians 2:15 We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 2:16 And knowing that a man is not justified out of works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we also have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified out of faith in Christ and not out of the works of law, because out of the works of law no flesh will be justified. 2:17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also have been found sinners, is then Christ a minister of sin? Absolutely not! 2:18 For if I build again the things which I have destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 2:19 For I through law have died to law that I might live to God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing.
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 316 of 383 (692622)
03-05-2013 7:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
01-18-2013 9:38 AM
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Re: Ephesians 3:1-14 and the economy of God
This is sort of changing the subject, but can I ask you another question? Do you think "this grace" in Eph. 3:8 is the same as "the grace of God" in 3:2? How would you describe or explain "this grace" and, especially, "the grace of God"? I think this is related to "the will of God" too. Edited by Richh, : Changed the title
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-18-2013 9:38 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 317 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 8:08 AM | | Richh has replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 318 of 383 (692740)
03-06-2013 11:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 317 by jaywill
03-06-2013 8:08 AM
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Re: Ephesians 3:1-14 and the grace of God
quote:
I try to remember that grace is a matter of God both over man and also within man. It is usually easier for us to understand God's grace as a kind of unmerited favor in God toward man. But God's grace working IN man I think is like "power steering" in an automibile. With a little cooperation His own life blends with ours and empowers us. Just like you apply a little turning to the car wheel and "power steering" adds substantial energizing to your moving. The analogy is not perfect, but a little helpful. The grace of God working IN Paul was none other than Jesus Christ working in Paul in a blended and mingled way. Grace working in man is Christ Himself living in man.
Christ living in man is the grace of God working in man.
Wow - that was a longer answer than I expected. There is a lot to say on this subject. I like your allusion to power steering. I think that is very apt. I guess grace has one source and one essence, but a varied expression. Maybe grace means something different in each case in Eph 3. It seems like in the first instance the revelation of the mystery to Paul was 'the grace' and became a stewardship for him to dispense. In the second instance 'the gift of the grace of God' seems like the gifts in grace mentioned in Ephesians 4, Romans 12 and I Pet. 4:10. Maybe there was some 'operation of His power' given to enable Paul to carry out his stewardship. In the third instance the grace is 'to announce as the gospel' the unsearchable riches of Christ and to enlighten all. It seems like Colossians is a good example of ‘evangelizing’ the unsearchable riches of Christ and both Ephesians 1-3 and Colossians enlighten as to the economy of the mystery. By the way the writer of Ephesians and the writer of the epistle to the Galatians both claim to base their ministry on revelation. The description in Ephesians is much fuller than the description in Galatians. (I also did not include all of the relevant verses in Galatians.)
RcV Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you, the Gentiles 3:2 If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3:3 That by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have written previously in brief, 3:4 By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ, 3:5 Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit, 3:6 That in Christ Jesus the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the Body and fellow partakers of the promise through the gospel, 3:7 Of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God which was given to me according to the operation of His power. 3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel 3:9 And to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been chidden in God, who created all things, Gal 1:11 For I make known to you, brothers, concerning the gospel announced by me, that it is not according to man. 1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation by Jesus Christ.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 317 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 8:08 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 341 of 383 (693129)
03-11-2013 11:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 339 by Eli
03-11-2013 2:27 AM
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Grace and Election
quote:
You still aren't acknowledging that the biblical grace (favor, intrinsically connected with election and anchored to some disagreeable or insurmountible task) is something altogether different from the modern usage of the word, (delivered from the law, absolved of sin, justified, perfected through no cause of one's own, unable to initiate a saving act and thus free from the responsibility of attempting any such initiation) which Jesus not only did not express as part of his ministry, but actively opposed. Grace is what people appeal to on Sunday to hand wave away the sin they've accumulated Monday through Saturday.
A question and an observation or two: How do you infer that grace and election are mutually exclusive? I do not think they are. Perhaps your definition of grace originates from an extreme Calvinistic viewpoint, but this is not the Biblical viewpoint. Neither grace nor election nullify the necessity (or liberty) of people to exercise their free will to chose God and the things of God, either before or after their salvation experience. God always puts the onus on man. Grace is God's operation; on our part we may choose or refuse our cooperation. Sometimes one or the other side of the equation is overlooked or ignored, but both sides are necessary. Grace in Paul motivated his 'more abundant' labor .
Post 317quote:
The Grace of Christ Working in Paul - "But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 339 by Eli, posted 03-11-2013 2:27 AM | | Eli has seen this message but not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
quote:
Is the absence of the word the in some English renderings the strongest reason you think Rom. 6:14 does not refer to the law of Moses ?
Ie. " for you are not under law ..."
It is because it doesn't appear to be in the Greek as I pointed out in Message 324.
The article is not present in the Greek in Rom 6:14, but it is present in Rom 7:6. Romans 7:1-6 is the explanation of how the statement Rom 6:14 could be possible. I don't the think the presence or absence of the article in conclusive here in Romans. Paul is talking about the same thing either way. He goes from the anarthous (without article) construction in Rom 2:12 to the construction with the article in 2:13 without missing a beat. YLT does indicate this by the use of the direct article in v. 13.
YLT Romans 2:12 for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged, 13 for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
...No law is a source of justification or salvation. That doesn't mean we don't follow the laws per their respective culture or society for day to day life. Paul didn't abolish anything other than the belief that one could acquire justification or salvation through written laws.
I agree with that. I guess I didn't make my suggestion clear in post 312 ( EvC Forum: Have You Ever Read Ephesians?). That was about the 'how'. I had mentioned that I like Wuest’s note on the meaning of ‘abolished’ on Eph 2:15.
The word 'abolished' is karargeo, 'to render inoperative.' Wuest's translation of Eph 2:14,15 reads:
For He Himself is our peace, the One who made the both one, having broken down the middle wall of the partition, the enmity, in is flesh He rendered inoperative the law of the commandments in ordinances, in order that the two He might create in Himself, resulting in one new man, making peace.
I think 'rendered inoperative' and is different than 'destroy' in Mat 5:17 - anyway, there is a different Greek word in Matthew than in Romans. Rom 7:1-6 show how He (Christ) rendered the law inoperative. It was by terminating man as the husband. Death frees a man or a woman from the bond of marriage. Paul is saying in Romans that we died with Christ. That death makes us dead to the law. The trend of though is a little complicated in these verses because at one point we are viewed and the wife and at another point as the husband.
7:4 So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ I think the verses in Romans and Galatians that I quoted show this same thought. There are phrases like 'not under law', 'freed from the law', 'dead to the law', 'discharged from the law', 'the end of the law' and 'the things which I have destroyed.' Romans 7:6 uses the same word katargo, where it is translated 'discharged'. So, I believe the concept is the same in Romans and Galatians. There has to be some explanation of how we are 'discharged from the law' and yet the Law remains in force. I think this can explain how the Law is not destroyed (c.f. Matt 5:17), yet our relationship to the Law can be changed because the law, still existing, is 'rendered inoperative'.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 344 by purpledawn, posted 03-11-2013 6:50 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 348 by jaywill, posted 03-15-2013 5:42 PM | | Richh has replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 349 of 383 (693560)
03-17-2013 10:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 348 by jaywill
03-15-2013 5:42 PM
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Re: Authenticity AND Revelation
quote:
I would like to ask you to expound if you can on a peculiar phrase in Galatians 5:23 - " ... against such things there is no law"
...
Why do you think the brother adds this "against such things there is no law"? Doesn't this call for us understanding the whole matter of walking in the Spirit from another angle it seems?
Paul's main burden in Galatians is to deal with the law and the dispensation of law. Your quote is near the end of Galatians, the culmination of the argument of this epistle. The subject of the law is not a simple one to explain (see post 347). For example, Ephesians 2:15 seems to contradict Matthew 5:17. It will be hard to cover all the things about the law mentioned in the Bible. I gathered some of them. The law is called the testimony of God in Leviticus; the ark is called the ark of the testimony and the tabernacle is called the tabernacle of testimony. The law is ever the testimony of God. God still desires to have His testimony lived out. God desires man to express Him. The question is how. Galatians says ‘But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.’ Romans 8:4 says, ‘That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit.’ The result of the Spirit of God coming into man, into man’s spirit, and man walking according to Spirit (and spirit), is that man is enabled to spontaneously ‘live out God.’ I gathered some verses from Galatians to follow the train of Paul's thought there. There are some things the law can od and some things it cannot do. And there is something that the law is. I added some verses from Romans and I Timothy too, but I don't have time to say more now.
RcV Galatians 2:16 And knowing that a man is not justified out of works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we also have believed into Christ Jesus that we might be justified out of faith in Christ and not out of the works of law, because out of the works of law no flesh will be justified. 2:19 For I through law have died to law that I might live to God. 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. 3:2 This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith? 3:10 For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them. 3:11 And that by law no one is justified before God is evident because, The righteous one shall have life and live by faith; 3:12 But the law is not of faith, yet, He who does them shall live because of them. 3:13 Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree; 3:14 In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 3:17 And I say this: A covenant previously ratified by God, the law, having come four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul so as to make the promise of none effect. 3:18 For if the inheritance is of law, it is no longer of promise; but to Abraham God has graciously given it through promise. 3:21 Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up all under sin in order that the promise out of faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 3:23 But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed. 3:24 So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law, 4:5 That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship. 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father! 4:7 So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one of the maidservant and cone of the free woman. 4:23 However the one of the maidservant was born according to the flesh, but the one of the free woman was born through promise. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 You have been brought to nought, separated from Christ, you who are being justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5:5 For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness. 5:13 For you were called for freedom, brothers; only do not turn this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 5:23 Meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law. I Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully
1:9 And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,
1:10 For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,
Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, You shall not covet. 7:12 So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. 7:13 Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin. 8:3 For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 348 by jaywill, posted 03-15-2013 5:42 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 350 of 383 (693793)
03-20-2013 3:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
01-09-2013 2:24 PM
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Re: The Riches of Christ
quote:
Anyway, back to Ephesians.
NIV writes:
Eph 3:7-19-- I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery,... ...to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. To explain the unsearchable riches of the anointing(also the Anointed One)and to make plain the administration of this mystery(the message, maybe?) which was previously hidden in God who created all things.
First, let me say that I totally agree with you that the anointing we received from Christ the Anointed One is one of the greatest unsearchable riches of Christ for us to experience and share with others. The Anointing brings God to us - how marvelous is this! Maybe I should stop here, but... Have you ever heard anyone ‘evangelize the unsearchable riches of Christ’? That is the literal translation of the phrase 'preach ... the unsearchable riches of Christ'. Have you ever ‘evangelized’ the unsearchable riches of Christ? I guess this is what we all do when we preach the gospel - we proclaim some of the riches of Christ that we have experienced. Could you list some other ‘unsearchable riches’ of Christ? I think Paul lists some in the book of Colossians. That epistle is very Christ-centric. (I like your posts because you bring everything down to earth. I’m sure you can see from my posts that I am ‘technical’ in my approach. I hope I am not too ‘ethereal’, but let me proceed) You can see that some translations omit the concept of ‘evangelize’, e.g., the NAS and NIV below, but you can see that Darby is careful to retain it as 'the glad tidings'. He doesn't just use the work 'preach'. But we should preach the unsearchable riches of Christ to...
NAS Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, NIV Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, DBY Ephesians 3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, The word ‘evangelize’ means to preach the gospel. It is a compound word in Greek 'eu' + 'aggelizo'. 'Eu' means good and 'aggelizo' is the verb form of the word for angel, or messenger. Evangelists are messengers bringing the good message - they are ‘angelizers’. The word ‘evangelize’ in Greek can be used to refer to the message or to indicate the persons to whom the message was delivered. So, to ‘evangelize the unsearchable riches of Christ’ is to tell people how good Jesus is. Christ’s riches are ‘good news’ to us. Here are some verses that show the versatility of the word evalgelize in Greek.
NAS Acts 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ - 'evangelize Jesus as the Christ' NAS Acts 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. - 'evangelize the word' NAS Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. - 'evangelize regarding the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ' NAS Acts 8:25 And so, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans. - 'evangelized the Samaritans' NAS Acts 8:35 And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. - 'evangelized Jesus' NAS Acts 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea. - 'evangelizing all the cities' NAS Acts 10:36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--'evangelizing peace' NAS Acts 13:32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 'evangelizing the good news of the promise'
All in all, there is too much 'good news' in all of these verses - unsearchable! Sometimes we forget. Just recounting this reminded me of the riches!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Phat, posted 01-09-2013 2:24 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
quote:
The letter is no different than the copious books at a Christian bookstore all trying to tell the believer how to apply the "word of God" to current issues.
I'm not sure that you can back this statement up with evidence. That is, I don't think you could produce any early Christian writing that matches the caliber of Ephesians. I wanted to add this additional note from F.W. Farrar, The Life and Work of St. Paul starting at p. 486, Vol. 2. It presents the argument from style quite well. It begins with a comparison of Colossians and Ephesians. Although this was extracted from a single paragraph I have broken it up into several paragraphs for readability and have included the middle of the paragraph here.
Even if we regard it as probable that anyone could have poured forth truths so exalted, and moral teachings so pure and profound, in an epistle by which he deliberately intended to deceive the Church and the world, it is not possible that one actuated by such a purpose should successfully imitate the glow and rush of feeling which marks the other writings of the Apostle, and expresses itself in the to-and-fro-conflicting eddies of thought, in the one great flow of utterance and purpose. The style of St. Paul may be compared to a great tide advancing irresistibly towards the destined shore, but broken and rippled over every wave of its broad expanse, and liable at any moment to mighty refluences as it foams and swells about opposing sandbank or rocky cape. With even more exactness we might compare it to a river whose pure waters, at every interspace of calm, reflect as a mirror the hues of heaven, but which is liable to the rushing influx of mountain torrents, and whose reflected images are only dimly discernable in the ten thousand fragments of quivering colour, when its surface is swept by ruffling winds. If we make the difficult concession that any other mind that that of St. Paul could have originated the majestic statement of Christian truth which is enshrined in the doctrinal part of the Epistle, we may still safely assert, on literary grounds alone, that no writer, desirous to gain a hearing for such high revelations, could so have so completely merged his own individuality in that of another as to imitate the involutions of parentheses, the digressions at a word, the superimposition of a minor current of feeling over another that is flowing steadily beneath it, the unconscious recurrence of haunting expressions, the struggle and strain to find a worthy utterance for thoughts and feelings which burst through the feeble bands of language, the dominance of the syllogism of emotion over the syllogism of grammar - the many minute characteristics which stamp so ineffaceable an impress on the Apostle’s undisputed works.
There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Farrar has ‘eaten the word’ in Colossians and Ephesians and found it hearty food.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 01-21-2013 8:13 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Goodspeed on Ephesians & Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
I found this interesting note in F. F. Bruce, The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon and to the Ephesians in section 3 of the introduction to Philemon, page 200, (3) Why was the letter preserved? Perhaps you will find it so too.
Here we come to those features of John Knox's Philemon among the Letters of Paul which make it one of the most important and fascinating studies of this letter ever to have been published. Knox’s work took shape against the background of the Chicago school of NT studies led by Edgar J. Goodspeed. Goodspeed pioneered the view that the Pauline corpus of ten letters (that is, lacking the three Pastorals) was edited and published at Ephesus about the end of the first century A.D., and that the document which we know as the letter to the Ephesians was composed by the editor to server as an introduction to the corpus. Other members of the school undertook supporting studies, and Knox’s book belongs to this category. Knox accepts the general Goodspeed position and goes on toe suggest a reason for the inclusion of Philemon in the ten-letter corpus. It was included because it meant very much to the man who played a prominent part in the publication of the corpus - namely, Onesimus. Here is his argument. When Ignatius, bishop of Antioch in Syria, was being taken to Rome for execution about A.D. 110, he was visited in Smyrna by the bishop of Ephesus, who was named Onesimus. But why should one connect this Onesimus with the Onesimus who figures in the letter to Philemon fifty years earlier. Because, says, Knox, Ignatius shows himself familiar with the letter with the writes a letter of thanks to the church of Ephesus. Ignatius’s letter to the Ephesians is, indeed, one of the few places in patristic literature which clearly echoes the language of the letter to Philemon. Not only so, but the part of Ignatius’s letter which echoes the language of the letter to Philemon is the part which mentions Bishop Onesimus - the first 6 chapters. In these six chapters the bishop is mentioned 14 times; in the remaining 15 chapters he is not mentioned at all (apart from one more general reference to the bishop’s office; obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undisturbed mind). This consideration is impressive. One especially impressive point is that, just as Paul plays on the meaning of Onesimus’s name (profitable) when he says to Philemon, may I have this ‘profit’ from you (v. 20), so apparently does Ignatius when he writes to the Ephesian church, may I always have ‘profit’ form you (2:2). All this does not demonstrate the identify of the two Onesimi; it could simply be that the name of the bishop of Ephesus reminded Ignatius of the Onesimus whom Paul befriended. As the earlier Onesimus, formerly unprofitable, was henceforth going to be as profitable as his name promised, so Onesimus of Ephesus was eminently worthy of that well-loved name. But the identification is not impossible one might go further and say that is not improbable. We have no idea how old Paul’s Onesimus was when he wrote about him; but a young man in his later teens or early twenties at that time would be about seventy by the time of Ignatius’s martyrdom - not a incredible age for a bishop in those days, Knox then ventures farther in his reconstruction of the situation. If (as the Goodspeed school held) Ephesus was the place where the Pauline corpus was first published, early in the second century, then the Onesimus of Ignatius’s letter was bishop of Ephesus around that time and must have had some responsibility with regard to the editing of the corpus. Why should he not have been the editor himself? If so, we need look no farther for the reason for the careful preservation of the letter to Philemon and its inclusion in the corpus of Paul’s letters. But if Onesimus was the editor of the corpus, then (according to the Goodspeed school) he would have been author of the canonical letter to the Ephesians. If that were so, Paul accomplished something more wonderful that he could have realized the day he won Onesimus to faith in Christ. But the Goodspeed line has not found wide acceptance. For those who are unable to follow it, Knox’s reconstruction has more of fancy than of fact about it. Yet the preservation and canonization of this private letter must be explained. To Onesimus the letter was his charter of liberty. That Onesimus did become bishop of Ephesus is not improbable. If so, then, wherever and by whomsoever the Pauline corpus was first compiled and published, Onesimus could scarcely fail; to get to know about it, and would make sure that his Pauline letter found a place in the collection.
There are two things that look like the genuine article: a really good counterfeit and the genuine article itself. I still feel that these epistles have all the marks of the genuine article. At any rate, Ephesians goes beyond what may be derived from a mere extract of Paul's epistles. It is hard to explain how something that 'goes beyond' could be considered a 'cover letter.' And yes, I, too, believe it is inspired!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:46 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Message 354 of 383 (695415)
04-05-2013 8:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 212 by jaywill
02-15-2013 1:35 AM
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Re: "Headed up in Christ" and "in Christ"
quote:
I see in this interesting word two possibilities I think: 1.) To head up all things AGAIN - this second time in Christ. Or as you suggest - 2.) To head up all things in Christ AGAIN. What do you think about this distinction?
I don't know if there is something in the Greek which stresses one over the other.
Christ is now "Head over all things to the church" and yet we do not see this applied to all things. I believe there was a time in the past before the rebellion of Satan when all things were headed up in Christ and the verses below show that there will be such a time in the future. There was a time when "the morning stars sang for joy.' Genesis 1:2 says, "But the earth became waste and emptiness..." So I think 'again' is consistent with the truth. I am not sure if I understand your distinction between 'a second time' and 'again' since 'a second time' is again.
Eph 1:22-23 And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, 23 Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all. Heb 2:8-9 You have subjected all things under His feet. For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him, 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything. I Cor 15:24-28 Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until God buts all His enemies under His feet. 26 Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. 27 For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. 28 And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all. I will do another post on the Greek.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2013 1:35 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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Richh
Member (Idle past 3760 days) Posts: 94 From: Long Island, New York Joined: 07-21-2009
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Re: Pauline Style as Evidence of Authorship
How do you account for statements like the following from Ephesians? Who is talking about what?
NIV Ephesians 3:13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. NIV Ephesians 6:21 Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord, will tell you everything, so that you also may know how I am and what I am doing. 22 I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:46 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 357 by Jazzns, posted 04-12-2013 10:48 AM | | Richh has replied |
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