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Author Topic:   The God Hypothesis
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 37 of 150 (689860)
02-05-2013 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Straggler
02-05-2013 8:12 AM


Re: Dualism
Strag writes:
why not clearly and concisely state what it is about reality that Buddhists observed and quantum theory has since confirmed. Be specific.
Do not try to bend the spoon, that's impossible;
rather try to realize the truth.
"There is no spoon."

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 8:12 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 11:32 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 40 of 150 (689866)
02-05-2013 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
02-05-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Dualism
Reality is illusory according to the Buddhism.
Reality in Buddhism - Wikipedia
Reality may be illusory according to proponents of
Holographic universe theorist.
Holographic principle - Wikipedia
I for one am a empiricist/pragmatist and am content to sleep better knowing things like spoons do exist enough to eat cake with, even if I can not say how or why.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 11:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 12:14 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 42 of 150 (689872)
02-05-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Straggler
02-05-2013 12:14 PM


Re: Dualism
Strag writes:
Dubious interpretations such as inappropriate links between ancient mysticisms and modern physics. For example.
It is not dubious to recognize the simularities between one religious frame of thought and a scientific one.
Wisdom and knowledge can come in many forms. Not just the Straggler approved variety.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 12:14 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 1:12 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 44 of 150 (689878)
02-05-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Straggler
02-05-2013 1:12 PM


Re: Dualism
The similarities are well documented and spoke about in just about any physics literature you care to read, and I provided two links that show more than just the word illusion.
But I'll bite and say that the Buddhist and Hindus offered the idea that reality is in constant flux and transient, that nature itself is illusory and can not be pinned down. These ideas being discussed 1500 BC. Which is astounding considering they are right. It is imo interesting and I agree coincidental that Quantum mechanic experiments showed, at that level, things are in constant change. Things like light had a dualistic nature. How empty space is frothing with quantum foam and it is impossible to peek at reality without changing the outcome. The Chinese were talking about organic patterns of life for thousands of years. And today it is understood that there is some inherent patterns to how reality manifest itself. Some current theories suggest reality arises from a two dimensional matrix. That reality may very well be illusory. Did the ancient Vedic Sages have some supernatural powers that gave them this knowledge? No. I believe they where just very fucking smart.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 1:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 6:35 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 48 of 150 (689908)
02-06-2013 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Straggler
02-05-2013 6:35 PM


Re: Dualism
E=MC2 or d=m/v
No you will not find Eastern religious thought directly quoted in a physics formulas.
No you will not in any maths gleen the four noble truths.
I get it Straggler.
You see no correlation between Buddhism and Modern physics.
There is nothing left to discuss.
My last post was not meant as a some sort of equivocation or how Buddhism trumps physics. Nor was it a defense that we can rest on religion for how to know things. It was simply a acknowledgement that there are known similarities, some even acknowledged in the science field. Many that I myself have come across when reading. Contrived, coincidence, vague and general? I suppose if that is how one views it. I get the impression that is your basic message, it is trivial and empty. Nothing I post or link will change that opinion.
Edited by 1.61803, : changed of to or.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2013 6:35 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2013 1:24 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 55 of 150 (689954)
02-06-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Straggler
02-06-2013 1:24 PM


Re: Table of Specific Similarities - Quantum Physics and Buddhism Compared
Strag writes:
I said that the bogus equivalences that are invoked in the name of Zen physics do a disservice both to Buddhism and modern science.
Like what? I made no bogus equivalences.
Strag writes:
There are claimed similarities certainly. But when I ask you to be specific I get hand waving generalisations about how everyone is familiar with the similarities and then vague use of terms like "flux" and "duality" and "illusion".
Because dude that is what terms are used.
Things like quantum entanglement are not used. And you do not think things like quantum entanglement, spooky action at a distance and the like don't sound vague and ridiculous? Give me a break.
Strag writes:
It's got nothing to do with my opinion. If you genuinely have a case stop hand waving and make that case. Stop making vague generalisations and give some specific examples of where modern physics and Buddhism can be shown to correlate with each other in a way that justifies the claims being made in this thread.
The term Sunyata in Madhyamaka Buddhism is a description of emptiness. That things don't really exist in of themselves but are dependent on things in relation to them and also upon the observation of them. This sort of relates to the Uncertainty principal. That would be an example.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2013 1:24 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2013 7:40 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 56 of 150 (689963)
02-06-2013 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
02-06-2013 2:18 PM


Re: Table of Specific Similarities - Quantum Physics and Buddhism Compared
That's hilarious lol.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2013 2:18 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 58 of 150 (689991)
02-07-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Stile
02-06-2013 2:21 PM


Re: Awareness Rambling
sorry.
Edited by 1.61803, : wrong poster

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 02-06-2013 2:21 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 59 of 150 (689992)
02-07-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Straggler
02-07-2013 7:40 AM


Re: Table of Specific Similarities - Quantum Physics and Buddhism Compared
Straggler writes:
They sound like things which require research and explanation. They sound like the sort of gaps in our knowledge that proponents of mysticism love because they can be filled with bullshit.
Sure if one interprets it as such.
But I will still play.
btw I am not a practicing Buddhist.
The Four Foundations of Buddhism
There are many different schools of Buddhism, but all are built upon the foundations of the Four Seals of Dharma.
The four seals are
(i) Lack of inherent existence
(ii) Impermanence
(iii) Unsatisfactoriness
(iv) Liberation of the mind
First Seal - Lack of inherent existence (emptiness)
(a) Causality: Phenomena exist dependent upon causes and conditions.
(b) Structure: Phenomena depend upon the relationship of whole to parts.
(c) phenomena depend upon imputation, attribution, or designation by the mind.
Second Seal - Impermanence
The impermanence of all functioning phenomena is an inevitable logical consequence of their emptiness of inherent existence.
No functioning phenomenon can be static, because to function it must change and be changed, it must give something of itself or receive something into itself. Existence is just the interplay of ever changing phenomenon from one form to the other.
Third Seal - The Unsatisfactoriness of Material Existence
All materialistic cravings eventually and inevitably lead to disappointment and worse. They cannot provide any ultimate satisfaction.
Fourth Seal - The Ultimate Liberation of the Mind
Through meditation and acceptance one can trancend suffering.
I know what your thinking. It does not say anywhere in there anything about Heisenberg's uncertainty principal, or Bells Theorem.
But if you look at one of the basic tenants of Buddhism that all things are illusory, that things are dependent on that which interacts with it. That for things to exist they must be perceived by the mind and assigned. Then surely this is reminiscent of those early QM phenomenon. Take into account that these ideas where being thought about, discussed and interpreted for centuries before Einstein wrote his first paper.
These ideas where counter intuitive, and bizarre. Just like some of the early scientist like Niels Bohr, Heisenberg, Oppenheimer where thinking during the 30's and 40's.
Is it any wonder Buddhism was being alluded to as being reminiscent of those experiments being made?
Coincidence? Could be.
So in conclusion I will just say you have a point, it could all be so much bull shit. But I for one find it interesting and intriguing.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2013 7:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2013 1:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 61 of 150 (690006)
02-07-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Straggler
02-07-2013 1:00 PM


Re: Table of Specific Similarities - Quantum Physics and Buddhism Compared
Alluded to? Reminiscient. You seem to be rapidly backtracking from the original assertion made in this thread that started all this Buddhist have already made all the observation Quantum Physicist have made about the nature of our Universe.
Where the hell did I say that? Please provide a link.
Just how much (or little) of a correlation are you now claiming that there is? (and why can’t you demonstrate it in my little head to head concept comparison table?)
Correlation I claim has not changed. I contend that the Buddhist concept of reality as I understand it and apparently most people to include fuckin Buddhist is one that reality is illusory. That things that we think are things are actually dependent on components of them. That they derive they're existance from our observing them and they're interrealitonships to things around them. Which has been shown to coincide and compared to modern scientific models.
In the case of Buddhism we can look at what is meant by the terms used in the context of that religion specifically. And here we see that it’s all about life, birth, death, conflict, the negation of suffering and the nature of an impermanent self — All in the context of reincarnation.
Well you derive that from one internet search my hats off to you. As there are so many schools and interpretations I find it difficult to track it all down. Not to mention every school having they're own interpretations of those interpretations. But I will say there seems to be a consensus on my initial interpretations and understanding (however slight).
There seems to be far to much woo to this subject to warrant any concrete side by side comparisons as obviously indicated. But hey I tried. Perhaps a Buddhist can fill it in.
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2013 1:00 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2013 11:51 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 62 of 150 (690013)
02-07-2013 2:26 PM


The bowl
I would like to state that I did read several books on Buddhism.
I was attracted to the non-dogmatic approach of Buddhism.
Buddhism was one religion that actually encouraged skepticism.
The problem I found was it offers no answers. It is open to interpretation on a scale more than any other religion.
I still find it is healthy to meditate. I also find it is a stress reliever to not take ownership in many of the problems we percieve intrude in our lives. One story that comes to mind.
There was a grand mother and grand daughter washing the evening meal dishes. The mother and and family friends sitting nearby. The grand daughter drops a bowl on the floor and it shatters. Not missing a beat, the grand mother picks up the dust pan and broom and without a word sweeps the pieces up and throws them away.
The grand daughter stands mortified. One of the family friends says: " My word that bowl was a heirloom and been in your family for generations, how can you simply just sweep it away?" To which the grand mother replys: " It was already broken."
When ever I lose something, or something breaks I try to remember this story. That we are just passing through this life, and take nothing beyond the grave. Why get angry and upset over something material. Enjoy what you have for now but leave the attachments that will cause you pain.
Since we were talkin Buddhism I hope mods will afford latitude.
Edited by 1.61803, : added word: to
Edited by 1.61803, : changed bold to italic

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 144 of 150 (693158)
03-11-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
03-11-2013 12:15 PM


Re: Intelligence IS Truth, fantasies are perceptions...
Ringo writes:
If you can't, your mental images are just fantasies.
This is spot on. Think of all the insane asylums in this country occupied by folks who have "thoughts" of a truly bizzare and batshit crazy nature. Some of which actually acted on these thoughts.
Stock piling weapons and sexually abusing minors to
Drowning children in bathtubs and the like for Jesus.
Texas seems to have a plethora of them.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 03-11-2013 12:15 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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