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Author Topic:   Morality without god
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 901 of 1221 (693974)
03-21-2013 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 899 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 8:18 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Your definition of morality seems a bit off, lets just clarify terms;
Morality
- A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
- Virtuous conduct.
Rules do not come into it, rules can be wrong and immoral -
Many of the rules in the bible I would deem deeply immoral even if they were
Once practical
Edit : I left the religious/Christian bit in there half to throw u guys a bone and half to express the notion that it's the ideas and not the rules that make something moral. I have no problem with loving thy neighbour in principle
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 8:18 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:34 AM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 904 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:46 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 902 of 1221 (693986)
03-21-2013 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 8:33 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Kofh2u:
Morals are rules for proper conduct, not measuring devices for the intent or motivations of the person obeying them.
Grim:
Your definition of morality seems a bit off, lets just clarify terms;
Morality
- A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct:
?
You seem "a little off,"...
There is no difference between: "rules for proper conduct" and "a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct."
Why people obey the Law is immaterial to the courts that MEASURE who breaks them and who does not.
A measure of good citizenship might include the motivation behind obeying rules, perhaps. But your quiz only separated Christians from secular people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 8:33 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 903 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 9:45 AM kofh2u has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 903 of 1221 (693987)
03-21-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 902 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:34 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
There is a colossal difference between a personally accepted notion of good behaviour and enforced rules (with rewards an reprimands) on behaviour, if I may use another example to illustrate my point;
Case 1,
Person A gives $100 to charity.
Case 2,
Person C gives $100 to charity while person G has a gun to his head telling him to give money to charity.
The actions are the same but the circumstances are very very different. It's the rules, which implies force, that I have issue with on this particular note
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 902 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:34 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:52 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 904 of 1221 (693988)
03-21-2013 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 8:33 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
" The murder rate in non-Death Penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in States with the Death Penalty.
WRONG...
/////
Virginia the state with the second-highest total of executions:
Virginia 3.7 4.7 4.7 4.7 5.3 5.2 6.1 5.2 5.6 5.3 5.1 5.7 5.7 6.2 7.2 7.5
///////////
UNCHANGED RATES IVER THE LAST 15 YEARS:
Ohio has executed only @ 1.5 persons/year since 1976.
Ohio 4.4 4.2 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.7 5.1 4.5 4.6 4.6 4 3.7 3.5 4 4.7 4.8
//////
West Virginia executes zero.
West Virginia 4.3 3.1 4.6 3.3 3.5 4.1 4.4 3.7 3.5 3.2 2.2 2.5 4.4 4.3 4.1 3.8
////
Pennsylvania 5.0 5.1 5.3 5.6 5.8 5.9 6.1 5.2 5.3 5.1 5.3 4.9 4.9 5.3 5.9 5.7
Pennsylvania :
Although Pennsylvania has the death penalty on the books, and had 228 convicted murderers on death row as of 2009, the last time the state actually executed anyone was in 1999. Since the state reinstated the death penalty in 1978, only three people have been executed as of 2009, and all three had waived their appeal rights. Pennsylvania has never executed anyone who has taken full advantage of the appeal process.[1]
//////
New Jersey 4.3 4.2 3.7 4.3 4.4 4.9 4.8 4.5 4.7 3.9 4 3.4 3.5 4 4.2 4.2
New Jersey: No prisoner has been put to death in the Garden State these past 45 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 8:33 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 906 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 9:57 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 905 of 1221 (693989)
03-21-2013 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 903 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 9:45 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Case 1,
Person A gives $100 to charity.
Case 2,
Person C gives $100 to charity while person G has a gun to his head telling him to give money to charity.
The actions are the same but the circumstances are very very different
Yopu are just opinionated and fail to be rational even when you proppse we refer to definitions.
You ARE sure that unless the person consciously WANTS to act morally, he isn't being moral.
The reason that fathers in a family make a difference between the people who grow up an kill others is because fathers are AUTHORITARIAN, and kids learn to be moral, or else.
You ought get OUT of the criminaal justice system because you are soft minded weak hearted lame brain those killers exploit.
They get you to like the part of them that is just like moral people, but blind to the responsiblity they have to society to accept their death sentences as they well knew was always the price of murder,... if they got caught.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 903 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 9:45 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 10:23 AM kofh2u has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 906 of 1221 (693990)
03-21-2013 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 904 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:46 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Dude to be honest I didnt come up with statement, I did mention I was quoting Amnesty International who themselves were referencing the National Research Council, both of which I would consider a reputable source.
Where r u getting your figures from?
Here is the original site
The Death Penalty and Deterrence – Amnesty International USA

This message is a reply to:
 Message 904 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:46 AM kofh2u has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 929 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2013 6:40 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 907 of 1221 (693999)
03-21-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 905 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:52 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Intent is hugely important, if one accidentally does something wrong it's a lesser crime that doing it on purpose - and I'd someone accidentially does good it's far less heroic - ultimately it's the thought that counts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 905 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:52 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 10:35 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 908 of 1221 (694001)
03-21-2013 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 907 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 10:23 AM


Re: Moral thought experiment
Intent is hugely important,
Of course it is.
That is the essence of a Christianity that preaches heart not Law.
The Christians criticized the Law that the Jews had used to punish those who broke it, paid the fines called "sacrifices" to the priests who benefited, and then went and did the same things again next week.
Just like theyoung, single catholics who are sexually promiscuous on friday and saturday nights, go to confession, and do the same thing next week end.
But that does not change the Rules/morals.
Christ said change your motivations, i.e.; your heart, and you can forget about Laws, because you won't be breaking them anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 10:23 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 909 of 1221 (694002)
03-21-2013 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 900 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 8:30 AM


Re: ...and for the victims...?
" The murder rate in non-Death Penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in States with the Death Penalty.
How many victims have u met?
But lets get back to your erroneous statistics.
The criminal element KNOWS these law and the actual way they are used way better than any common citizen does.
Having a Death Penalty does NOT mean ANYTHING to criminals who KNOW theynwill probaly get out of jail in 7 years, on average because the death sentence is dead.
WAKE UP or stop lying if you actually already knew all this.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 900 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 8:30 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 910 by Eli, posted 03-21-2013 11:08 AM kofh2u has not replied
 Message 911 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 11:27 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3492 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 910 of 1221 (694009)
03-21-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 909 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 10:46 AM


Re: ...and for the victims...?
This whole sentiment is quite ironic coming from you.
You are in no position to be questioning other people's stats or accusing them of lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 909 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 10:46 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 911 of 1221 (694014)
03-21-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 909 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 10:46 AM


Re: ...and for the victims...?
I'm sorry I really dont understand what point u are trying to make -
And where do u think I've been lying? I've provided sources for everything I've cited and I've tried to demonstrate my logic through thought models and examples, I've also included information from my own life to explain how I've come about my position. I really don't know how I can be more honest or up front.
Edit / addition : and since u seemed concerned about my career path you'll be happy to know I havent worked in a prison for a few years now, currently run a day service for adults with profound autism.
With regards to victims I've met many many many of them, although obviously not
Murder victims..... Cus they're dead
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 909 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 10:46 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 1:21 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 912 of 1221 (694017)
03-21-2013 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 849 by kofh2u
03-20-2013 7:12 PM


Re: ...foolish people ignore tyrants as if they don't exist...
kofh2u writes:
The grace of this God is that "he" is rationally understandable.
Then why do believers have such bizarre irrational "explanations" for his supposed commandments? Like justifying slavery. ("Slavery was fun in the Bible. It was like a ride at Disneyland. There were long lineups to get in.")
The problem with having an external source for morality is that you don't have an internal understanding. The source of the message is irrelevant (i.e. "God' is irrelevant). You have to understand the message. It's called "empathy".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by kofh2u, posted 03-20-2013 7:12 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 913 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 12:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 917 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 1:34 PM ringo has replied
 Message 920 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 913 of 1221 (694021)
03-21-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 912 by ringo
03-21-2013 12:00 PM


Re: ...foolish people ignore tyrants as if they don't exist...
I would go a step further and say that an external source for morality is an oximoron

This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by ringo, posted 03-21-2013 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 914 by ringo, posted 03-21-2013 12:47 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 916 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 1:28 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 914 of 1221 (694029)
03-21-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 913 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 12:14 PM


Re: ...foolish people ignore tyrants as if they don't exist...
GrimSqueaker writes:
I would go a step further and say that an external source for morality is an oximoron
I'd call it a commonly-believed fantasy. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have threads like this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 12:14 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 915 of 1221 (694042)
03-21-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 911 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 11:27 AM


Re: ...and for the victims...?
I've provided sources for everything I've cited
No.
You said that executing killers has no measurable effect one the rate of murders.
You have ignored that your supposed Stats to back that up was merely a claim that rates are unaffected by having a Law permitting Capital Punishment.
I corrested you in saying that ACTUAL executions measured against rates is what matters.
You have continued to argue your point in spite that Texas was notably the only State executing people, and the rates were cut in half.
Virginia had more executions than most other states, and the rate went down.
I am accusing you of dismissing the very truth about the evidence you used to support your case.You have NOT retracted your claim nor accepted the facts above, and talking further is a waste of time therwise, isn't it??
Your mind is made up.
Executions are Politically Incorrect.
Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 911 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 11:27 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-21-2013 1:36 PM kofh2u has replied

  
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