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Author | Topic: Morality without god | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Your definition of morality seems a bit off, lets just clarify terms;
Morality - A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality. - Virtuous conduct. Rules do not come into it, rules can be wrong and immoral -Many of the rules in the bible I would deem deeply immoral even if they were Once practical Edit : I left the religious/Christian bit in there half to throw u guys a bone and half to express the notion that it's the ideas and not the rules that make something moral. I have no problem with loving thy neighbour in principle Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
Kofh2u: Morals are rules for proper conduct, not measuring devices for the intent or motivations of the person obeying them. Grim: Your definition of morality seems a bit off, lets just clarify terms;Morality - A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct:
?You seem "a little off,"... There is no difference between: "rules for proper conduct" and "a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct." Why people obey the Law is immaterial to the courts that MEASURE who breaks them and who does not. A measure of good citizenship might include the motivation behind obeying rules, perhaps. But your quiz only separated Christians from secular people.
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
There is a colossal difference between a personally accepted notion of good behaviour and enforced rules (with rewards an reprimands) on behaviour, if I may use another example to illustrate my point;
Case 1, Person A gives $100 to charity. Case 2, Person C gives $100 to charity while person G has a gun to his head telling him to give money to charity. The actions are the same but the circumstances are very very different. It's the rules, which implies force, that I have issue with on this particular note Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
" The murder rate in non-Death Penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in States with the Death Penalty.
WRONG... ///// Virginia the state with the second-highest total of executions: Virginia 3.7 4.7 4.7 4.7 5.3 5.2 6.1 5.2 5.6 5.3 5.1 5.7 5.7 6.2 7.2 7.5 ///////////UNCHANGED RATES IVER THE LAST 15 YEARS: Ohio has executed only @ 1.5 persons/year since 1976. Ohio 4.4 4.2 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.7 5.1 4.5 4.6 4.6 4 3.7 3.5 4 4.7 4.8 ////// West Virginia executes zero. West Virginia 4.3 3.1 4.6 3.3 3.5 4.1 4.4 3.7 3.5 3.2 2.2 2.5 4.4 4.3 4.1 3.8 //// Pennsylvania 5.0 5.1 5.3 5.6 5.8 5.9 6.1 5.2 5.3 5.1 5.3 4.9 4.9 5.3 5.9 5.7Pennsylvania : Although Pennsylvania has the death penalty on the books, and had 228 convicted murderers on death row as of 2009, the last time the state actually executed anyone was in 1999. Since the state reinstated the death penalty in 1978, only three people have been executed as of 2009, and all three had waived their appeal rights. Pennsylvania has never executed anyone who has taken full advantage of the appeal process.[1] ////// New Jersey 4.3 4.2 3.7 4.3 4.4 4.9 4.8 4.5 4.7 3.9 4 3.4 3.5 4 4.2 4.2New Jersey: No prisoner has been put to death in the Garden State these past 45 years.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
Case 1, Person A gives $100 to charity. Case 2, Person C gives $100 to charity while person G has a gun to his head telling him to give money to charity. The actions are the same but the circumstances are very very different
Yopu are just opinionated and fail to be rational even when you proppse we refer to definitions. You ARE sure that unless the person consciously WANTS to act morally, he isn't being moral. The reason that fathers in a family make a difference between the people who grow up an kill others is because fathers are AUTHORITARIAN, and kids learn to be moral, or else. You ought get OUT of the criminaal justice system because you are soft minded weak hearted lame brain those killers exploit.They get you to like the part of them that is just like moral people, but blind to the responsiblity they have to society to accept their death sentences as they well knew was always the price of murder,... if they got caught. Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Dude to be honest I didnt come up with statement, I did mention I was quoting Amnesty International who themselves were referencing the National Research Council, both of which I would consider a reputable source.
Where r u getting your figures from? Here is the original site The Death Penalty and Deterrence – Amnesty International USA
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Intent is hugely important, if one accidentally does something wrong it's a lesser crime that doing it on purpose - and I'd someone accidentially does good it's far less heroic - ultimately it's the thought that counts
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
Intent is hugely important,
Of course it is.That is the essence of a Christianity that preaches heart not Law. The Christians criticized the Law that the Jews had used to punish those who broke it, paid the fines called "sacrifices" to the priests who benefited, and then went and did the same things again next week. Just like theyoung, single catholics who are sexually promiscuous on friday and saturday nights, go to confession, and do the same thing next week end. But that does not change the Rules/morals. Christ said change your motivations, i.e.; your heart, and you can forget about Laws, because you won't be breaking them anyway.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
" The murder rate in non-Death Penalty states has remained consistently lower than the rate in States with the Death Penalty.
How many victims have u met? But lets get back to your erroneous statistics.The criminal element KNOWS these law and the actual way they are used way better than any common citizen does. Having a Death Penalty does NOT mean ANYTHING to criminals who KNOW theynwill probaly get out of jail in 7 years, on average because the death sentence is dead. WAKE UP or stop lying if you actually already knew all this. Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
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Eli Member (Idle past 3492 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
This whole sentiment is quite ironic coming from you.
You are in no position to be questioning other people's stats or accusing them of lying.
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
I'm sorry I really dont understand what point u are trying to make -
And where do u think I've been lying? I've provided sources for everything I've cited and I've tried to demonstrate my logic through thought models and examples, I've also included information from my own life to explain how I've come about my position. I really don't know how I can be more honest or up front. Edit / addition : and since u seemed concerned about my career path you'll be happy to know I havent worked in a prison for a few years now, currently run a day service for adults with profound autism.With regards to victims I've met many many many of them, although obviously not Murder victims..... Cus they're dead Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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kofh2u writes:
Then why do believers have such bizarre irrational "explanations" for his supposed commandments? Like justifying slavery. ("Slavery was fun in the Bible. It was like a ride at Disneyland. There were long lineups to get in.") The grace of this God is that "he" is rationally understandable. The problem with having an external source for morality is that you don't have an internal understanding. The source of the message is irrelevant (i.e. "God' is irrelevant). You have to understand the message. It's called "empathy".
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GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
I would go a step further and say that an external source for morality is an oximoron
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GrimSqueaker writes:
I'd call it a commonly-believed fantasy. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have threads like this.
I would go a step further and say that an external source for morality is an oximoron
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3820 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
I've provided sources for everything I've cited
No. You said that executing killers has no measurable effect one the rate of murders. You have ignored that your supposed Stats to back that up was merely a claim that rates are unaffected by having a Law permitting Capital Punishment. I corrested you in saying that ACTUAL executions measured against rates is what matters. You have continued to argue your point in spite that Texas was notably the only State executing people, and the rates were cut in half.Virginia had more executions than most other states, and the rate went down. I am accusing you of dismissing the very truth about the evidence you used to support your case.You have NOT retracted your claim nor accepted the facts above, and talking further is a waste of time therwise, isn't it?? Your mind is made up.Executions are Politically Incorrect. Right?
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