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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 121 of 652 (694877)
03-30-2013 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 11:41 PM


Christianity Today
quote:
Some of us think that these beliefs are destructive. How do you propose we talk about them in a rational manner?
So it isn't just the idea, but the subsequent action that is a concern. See I'm not being overly pedantic.
Show the destructive action in today's world that results from the beliefs considered to be immoral. Then we can debate whether the actions are immoral or not and whether they are due to the belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:41 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Jazzns, posted 04-01-2013 11:11 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 122 of 652 (694880)
03-30-2013 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Tangle
03-30-2013 5:23 AM


quote:
"explain to me why I deserve, at best, everlasting denial of happiness and why an entity that is supposed to be perfect love, would do this to me. And then explain why it would be a moral act"
Why is it moral to condemn a perfectly decent bloke to everlasting hell?
Hell's not so bad since the fires are out now.
Photos of Hell
Christian views on hell generally hold it to be place or a state in which the souls of the damned suffer the consequences of their sins.
Damnation (from Latin damnatio) is the concept of everlasting divine punishment and/or disgrace, especially the punishment for sin as threatened by God (e.g. Mark 3:29). A damned being "in damnation" is said to be either in Hell, or living in a state wherein they are divorced from Heaven and/or in a state of disgrace from God's favor.
Morality is set by the society. The afterlife is a different society than the living. Gods rules the afterlife. They may consider it very moral to condemn a perfectly decent bloke to hell.
Of course, we really don't know what hell or heaven are like or how we are manifested in that world. They both may be torturous.
So what effect does the belief in such bunkum have on our society today?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 5:23 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 8:29 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 123 of 652 (694881)
03-30-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 8:16 AM


purpledawn writes:
The afterlife is a different society than the living. Gods rules the afterlife. They may consider it very moral to condemn a perfectly decent bloke to hell.
Are you really satisfied with that answer? You have just described an immoral god.
You have also described a god that you have no way at all of knowing whether you're pleasing or insulting by your actions - including worshipping him.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 8:16 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 9:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 124 of 652 (694883)
03-30-2013 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
03-30-2013 8:29 AM


quote:
Are you really satisfied with that answer? You have just described an immoral god.
You have also described a god that you have no way at all of knowing whether you're pleasing or insulting by your actions - including worshipping him.
His world, his morals. Those who believe and join the club know the rules for their god. That's the purpose of revelation.
Now answer the question I asked. What effect does the belief in such bunkum have on our society today????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 8:29 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:01 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 125 of 652 (694887)
03-30-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 9:55 AM


purpledawn writes:
His world, his morals. Those who believe and join the club know the rules for their god. That's the purpose of revelation.
According to you, you can not know his rules because only he knows them and they can be anything he wants, including behaving immorally.
The 'revelation' is therefore nothing of the sort; it's just what you want to believe it to be.
You're also left with the morality puzzle of those people who have had no chance of any 'revelation' - because they happened to be born in a part of the world where this particular brand of belief hasn't reached - also going straight to hell (of whatever flavour you've chosen to believe.)
And the fact that the 'revelations' are all totally different.
In other words, it's totally irrational and inconsistent. It's therefore purely imaginary.
What effect does the belief in such bunkum have on our society today????
it means that those who believe the bunkum carry a pile of anti-rational baggage around with them and feel that they need to impose their whacky beliefs on society - nasty things like homosexual prejudices, dangerous and murderous contraception policies and attempt to get their erroneous beliefs and values into our classrooms - re-inventing the whole of biology, geology and astronomy for their own batty beliefs.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 9:55 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 6:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 126 of 652 (694888)
03-30-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tangle
03-30-2013 4:33 AM


It's all about the heart
Tangle writes:
I lead a decent and moral life - take that as fact.
But I'm an atheist, so according to most Christians this means I'm going to hell. (Even in your moderate view, I'll be denied perfect happiness for all eternity).
My atheism isn't a result of a some kind of hatred for Christianity or Christ, it's purely an act of reason. I've thought it through and considered it using the very tools you believe that your God gave me.
Now explain to me why I deserve, at best, everlasting denial of happiness and why an entity that is supposed to be perfect love, would do this to me. And then explain why it would be a moral act.
Your first statement doesn’t represent my views nor does it represent the view of Jesus in the Gospel. I was an agnostic and I too looked at the evidence and came to the conclusion that Christianity was essentially true. I do believe that the Bible is both culturally and personally conditioned which of course means that it isn’t inerrant, but I do believe that Jesus embodied God’s return to the world that He brought into existence.
Here are a couple of passages from the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels. The first is Matthew 7:21.
quote:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Firstly I’d like to say that Kingdom of Heaven, (same as Kingdom of God in the other Gospels), is not talking about going off to some disembodies spirit land. The Kingdom is the kingdom that Christ established in the hearts of His people in this world for this world, as in the Lord ’s Prayer where Jesus asked us to pray that God’s Kingdom would come on Earth as in Heaven.
The point being that it isn’t a matter of intellectually agreeing that Christ is Lord that makes you right with Him.
It isn’t belief as defined as intellectual ascent that makes us right with God, it is about doing His will. What then is His will?
Here is the parable from Matthew 25.
quote:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his thronein heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
In this parable we can see that there is no mention of believing Christian or Jewish doctrine. It is all about loving and caring for others. Even at that though if we consider other Gospel quotes it isn’t just a matter of doing those things but it is a matter of what actually motivates us.
This is from Mark 7.
quote:
18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
As I said earlier it is all about the heart. So in the end the choice we make is to have hearts that love selfishly our do we have hearts that love unselfishly. I remember two phrases that were popular in the 1960’s that are perfect examples of the type of thinking that separates us from God. The first is looking out for number one and the second is, if it feels good do it. If we choose a life spent looking out for number one then that is a lifestyle that we choose for eternity apart from God. If however we choose a life that is based on loving our neighbour as our self then that will form the basis for our eternal existence with God.
In some ways it is easier for an atheist to be right with God as the loving things that he/she do are done without any thought that there might be something for them in the end, whereas if a Christian does what appears to be loving acts thinking that this will get God on His side then those acts are being done out of selfishness in the same way that if we do them to get the approval of other humans. I do believe though, that for Christians who have truly given their hearts to Christ out of a love for Him and His Gospel message of peace, love, forgiveness etc will have their hearts changed by God and His spirit to love the things that are of God no matter how imperfectly they live it. It is however a gradual process as we continue to evolve both as societies and as individuals.
AbE: I know it is easy to cherry pick Bible verses to make a point, but it is my contention that I picked verses that depict the overall thrust of the message of Jesus. The theme of building a Kingdom made up of those whose hearts were characterized by genuine love, peace, forgiveness, compassion etc is what the Gospel message is primarily all about.
I also suggest that the OT verse I quote in my signature encapsulates the message that God would have us take from the entire Bible.
Edited by GDR, : Added last couple of paragraphs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 4:33 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:30 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 127 of 652 (694889)
03-30-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by GDR
03-30-2013 12:01 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
first statement doesn’t represent my views nor does it represent the view of Jesus in the Gospel.
So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 12:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 1:22 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 3:44 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 144 by Larni, posted 03-31-2013 8:15 AM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 652 (694891)
03-30-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
03-30-2013 12:30 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Will you bring real beer and BBQ?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 1:53 PM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 129 of 652 (694897)
03-30-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
03-30-2013 1:22 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
I thought it was an all inclusive deal??

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 1:22 PM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 130 of 652 (694905)
03-30-2013 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
03-30-2013 12:30 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Tangle writes:
So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not?
The direct answer is I have no idea, but if you read my last post it would be obvious that I don't see you being excluded from life with God based on your theological beliefs.
The other point I'd make is that the idea of going somewhere else to some form of disembodied existence is actually platonic and not Biblical. The Bible message is that this world will be part of a new creation, which is why, from a Christian perspective, that we take good care of the planet that God has given us responsibility for.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 3:48 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 131 of 652 (694906)
03-30-2013 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
03-30-2013 3:44 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
The direct answer is I have no idea,
But why do you have no idea? A truly moral God would have no difficulty making it absolutely clear what was required to get into his heaven. After all, it's the most monumentally devastating thing to get wrong.
How come there is room for you to disagree with other Christians who absolutely know, I'm going straight to hell without passing go?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 3:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 5:43 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 9:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 132 of 652 (694909)
03-30-2013 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
03-30-2013 3:48 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Tangle writes:
But why do you have no idea? A truly moral God would have no difficulty making it absolutely clear what was required to get into his heaven. After all, it's the most monumentally devastating thing to get wrong.
I believe that God in some way embodied (was incarnate in) the man Jesus and spoke to us directly about what it is he wants of us. The thing is though, it isn’t about what it is that we do, it is about who we are at the core of our being. It is about who we are when no one is watching.
The great commandment is that we are to genuinely care for and want the best for our fellow man and for that matter all of this creation. If you do that then you have fulfilled all of the laws and have been made right with God. The question is of course, how can you be commanded to feel that way about the guy who just cut you off in traffic. How can you be commanded to love. The answer is that you can’t. As I said in the end we make a choice about the kind of world that we want. Do we want a world that is characterized by unselfish love or do we want a world where the primary concern is for the self.
So it is clear in that sense but it isn’t as simple as saying that if you spend 3 hrs a week at the soup kitchen you’re in. It is about the real you and that is between God and you.
Tangle writes:
How come there is room for you to disagree with other Christians who absolutely know, I'm going straight to hell without passing go?
If there was no ambiguity then we have pretty much lost our ability to freely choose. There are those who have decided that the Bible is to be understood as being essentially dictated by God. A cursory reading of the Bible should be enough to dissuade people of that notion but however there are those who want definite answers so if the Bible is understood as being read in that manner they can always find something that will confirm their preconceived ideas.
I’m not saying that I don’t do that as well, but I do believe that my views are consistent with the thrust of the entire narrative that makes up the Bible. My starting point is the resurrection. I have read a considerable number of views on the authenticity of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection and am firmly convinced that Jesus died on the cross and was later resurrected in a new bodily form by God. That is my starting point and my understanding then of the Bible is that all of it should be understood by what Jesus has to tell us in the Gospels. I also accept that even the Gospels are going to be personally and culturally conditioned but the Kingdom message of Jesus is consistent throughout all of the Gospels and the message of love, forgiveness, peace etc. can be trusted.
If Jesus was not resurrected then as Paul says, it is people like myself who are to be pitied above all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 6:08 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 133 of 652 (694910)
03-30-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by GDR
03-30-2013 5:43 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
The thing is, you've told me an awful lot about what you believe and totally failed to answer the questions I asked.
I suppose that's all you can do really.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 5:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 6:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 134 of 652 (694911)
03-30-2013 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Tangle
03-30-2013 6:08 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Tangle writes:
The thing is, you've told me an awful lot about what you believe and totally failed to answer the questions I asked.
I suppose that's all you can do really.
You seem to want a definitive answer as to what eternity will be like for you. Nobody can give you that answer which is an answer in itself.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 6:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:36 AM GDR has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 135 of 652 (694913)
03-30-2013 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Tangle
03-30-2013 12:01 PM


The Afterlife
quote:
According to you, you can not know his rules because only he knows them and they can be anything he wants, including behaving immorally.
I didn't, you did. I said it is a different society. It's like when the Europeans came to North America and considered some Native American ways to be immoral or unnatural. Cherokee Families
quote:
In other words, it's totally irrational and inconsistent. It's therefore purely imaginary.
Please decide which way you want to argue. Either as gods exist or they don't. I don't care which, but don't wimble back and forth.
I've been arguing from the standpoint of gods existing. Who said the afterlife was fair by our standards?
quote:
it means that those who believe the bunkum carry a pile of anti-rational baggage around with them and feel that they need to impose their whacky beliefs on society - nasty things like homosexual prejudices, dangerous and murderous contraception policies and attempt to get their erroneous beliefs and values into our classrooms - re-inventing the whole of biology, geology and astronomy for their own batty beliefs.
How does any of this go against the moral standards of a society. I'm in the US. Please show support that any of this deals with the Christian system.
Show me the immoral acts due to believing in Christian hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:49 AM purpledawn has replied

  
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