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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 652 (694917)
03-30-2013 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
03-30-2013 3:48 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
How come there is room for you to disagree with other Christians who absolutely know, I'm going straight to hell without passing go?
He might be honest.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:24 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 137 of 652 (694928)
03-31-2013 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
03-30-2013 9:22 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Jar writes:
He might be honest.
It really is that simple.
I think he is, and it is simple. He's just saying what he personally prefers to believe.
As other who share the same belief prefer to believe someting different and there's no actual evidence for either, there's not much more to be said.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 9:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 3:46 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 150 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 138 of 652 (694929)
03-31-2013 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by GDR
03-30-2013 6:14 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
You seem to want a definitive answer as to what eternity will be like for you.
That's not the purpose of my question. I obviously don't belive in anything to do with heaven and hell. I'm trying to understand why believers do and debate whether hell is a morally bankrupt Christian idea.
From what has been said so far, the concept of hell is utterly unjust and immoral. Not only that, no-one can even agree on what it is or how to avoid it.
Nobody can give you that answer which is an answer in itself.
Yes it it. And the obvious answer is that it's a myth. Like all the others in your book. I fail to see how any rational person can reach a different conclusion.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 6:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 652 (694930)
03-31-2013 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Tangle
03-31-2013 3:24 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
This thread isn't about the validity of a belief. As best as can be determined the originator argued that certain Christian doctrines are immoral in his opinion. (See Message 1)
Biblically speaking, we are all going to hell.
Hell is the Grave

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:24 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 140 of 652 (694931)
03-31-2013 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 6:53 PM


Re: The Afterlife
purpedawn writes:
I've been arguing from the standpoint of gods existing. Who said the afterlife was fair by our standards?
How can a God be unfair by our standards and still be regarded as moral by us?
If morality is defined as anything a god decides is moral for him, it serves no purpose for us. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not nomally regarded as the Christian message.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 6:53 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:30 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-31-2013 2:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 141 of 652 (694932)
03-31-2013 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Tangle
03-31-2013 3:49 AM


Re: The Afterlife
Do I really have to ask all my questions twice????
quote:
How can a God be unfair by our standards and still be regarded as moral by us?
We are talking about the afterlife. As far as I know, religions are the only ones with standards concerning the afterlife.
Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
Biblically speaking, the wicked are punished. Unfortunately in this thread we working with what beliefs have become or what the originator thinks the belief is, not necessarily biblical.
quote:
If morality is defined as anything a god decides is moral for him, it serves no purpose for us. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not nomally regarded as the Christian message.
I didn't change the meaning of morality. It still means a doctrine of system of moral conduct. In our society, there is the idea that the wicked are to be punished. The Hell belief isn't any different.
So back to my question: How does any of the issues you mentioned in Message 125 go against the moral standards or conduct of our society? (I'm in the US.) Please show support that any of this deals with the Christian system.
What immoral actions does the belief in a fiery hell cause??????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:01 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 142 of 652 (694934)
03-31-2013 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by purpledawn
03-31-2013 4:30 AM


Re: The Afterlife
purpledawn writes:
Do I really have to ask all my questions twice????
I've answered your question. And it's off topic. If you want to discuss how Christianity is bad for society, start a thread.
Biblically speaking, the wicked are punished. Unfortunately in this thread we working with what beliefs have become or what the originator thinks the belief is, not necessarily biblical.
Biblically or otherwise, it's wicked to punish people who lead good lives just because they find that the evidence for a creator is inadequate to support a belief or because they were born in the wrong country to the wrong parents.
THAT is what we're discussing, whether Christianity is morally bankrupt. The concept of hell where good peope are sent for no fault of their own is the proof

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:30 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 8:07 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 147 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 8:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 652 (694940)
03-31-2013 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
03-31-2013 5:01 AM


A Tangled Web
Tangle writes:
Biblically or otherwise, it's wicked to punish people who lead good lives just because they find that the evidence for a creator is inadequate to support a belief or because they were born in the wrong country to the wrong parents.
Provided they were never given an option to reconsider, I might agree....
The question is, if you died or were near death and Jesus suddenly appeared to you either literally or strong metaphorically and asked you to accept Him, would you defiantly continue rejecting Him based on your own "precious" yet worthless free will? Or would you reconsider..... The issue is not what a God could or would hypothetically do to you....the issue is how you would respond to Him....assuming you became aware of an undeniable possibility...at least...of His existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 8:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 144 of 652 (694942)
03-31-2013 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
03-30-2013 12:30 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not?
No. You get to go to Hell.
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:30 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 8:33 AM Larni has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 652 (694943)
03-31-2013 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Larni
03-31-2013 8:15 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
A lot depends on which destinations are available in reality.
Assuming that God exists...and further assuming relationship/acknowledgement is found only through Jesus...it would be silly to reject God and/or Jesus based on personal or societal interpretation of the Bible. The issue would involve a relationship with an active living entity.
Too many people reject God based only on Biblical interpretation.
Of course, for many, that's all they have to go on is the characters in a book.
Assuming the ultimate decision would be made on meeting the character(of Jesus Christ) I could see no reason anyone would reject Him...unless they held their free will in higher regard....and simply chose rejecting.
Edited by Phat, :

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Larni, posted 03-31-2013 8:15 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Larni, posted 03-31-2013 8:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 146 of 652 (694944)
03-31-2013 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
03-31-2013 8:33 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
Hey, Phat,
It's not an interpretation of the bible. I'm just following the meaning of the words.
What's to interpret?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 8:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 147 of 652 (694945)
03-31-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
03-31-2013 5:01 AM


Re: The Afterlife
quote:

No you didn't. It isn't the same as the first question I had to ask twice and it is very much in line with this topic. I'm not asking how Christianity is bad for society. I'm asking for specific immoral actions as a result of the belief in Christian heaven or hell.
If your position is that the belief is immoral, it really is of no consequence unless it leads to an immoral action. As I've shown earlier in the thread, humans can't send anyone to Christian hell. So there is no human immoral action associated with this belief. As far as I know there isn't any moral code or law that says a god can't do what he wants with the dead.
I've also shown evidence that the idea of eternal punishment is incorrect when examining the text. So one feels an erroneous belief is unfair and immoral. Who cares unless it manifests itself as immoral acts in the real world?
My question: How do any of the issues you mentioned in Message 125 go against the moral standards or conduct of our society today? Please show support that any of this deals with the Christian system.
What immoral actions does the belief in a fiery hell cause???
quote:
Biblically or otherwise, it's wicked to punish people who lead good lives just because they find that the evidence for a creator is inadequate to support a belief or because they were born in the wrong country to the wrong parents.
Seriously! Show me that that is the doctrine of Hell. You don't have any more support for your view of it than the Christians who are off in their thinking.
quote:
THAT is what we're discussing, whether Christianity is morally bankrupt. The concept of hell where good people are sent for no fault of their own is the proof.
That's your concept. Show support for it in the Christian teachings of today.
If the Christian system takes no actions that go against the moral standards of society due to the beliefs, then it isn't morally bankrupt. Just because someone doesn't like the belief and feels it is unjust, doesn't make it immoral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 9:57 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 148 of 652 (694946)
03-31-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
03-31-2013 8:07 AM


Re: A Tangled Web
Phat writes:
Provided they were never given an option to reconsider, I might agree....
The question is, if you died or were near death and Jesus suddenly appeared to you either literally or strong metaphorically and asked you to accept Him, would you defiantly continue rejecting Him based on your own "precious" yet worthless free will? Or would you reconsider..... The issue is not what a God could or would hypothetically do to you....the issue is how you would respond to Him....assuming you became aware of an undeniable possibility...at least...of His existence.
So that's the test now is it? It's a new one on me. Where did it come from? How would it work? Why would I suddenly believe a metaphor?
What's the point of faith if he suddenly presents himself uncontrovertibly?
Why would anyone deny his existence if he provided proof?
I have a feeling you're making this stuff up as you go....
(By the way, freewill has nothing to do, that's just another piece of religious bunkum.)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 8:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 149 of 652 (694947)
03-31-2013 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by purpledawn
03-31-2013 8:50 AM


Re: The Afterlife
purpledawn, we're debating this, the original proposition:
grimskeaker writes:
I propose that Christianity is essentially a morally bankrupt system.
My reasoning is as follows;
2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
We can get onto what YOU want to talk about, when we're done arguing about whether the concept of heaven and hell is unjust.
So far, there's been no agreement at all between the Christians here about:
1. what hell is and what it entails
2. how/if a person can avoid it
3. whether a good person can be sent there
But, on balance, it seems to me that whatever the thing is, hell is a bad place and that God will send a person to it whether they have lead a good life or not, even if they've never heard of him.
That is defacto unjust and therefor immoral.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 8:50 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 652 (694948)
03-31-2013 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Tangle
03-31-2013 3:24 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
But the important part, the "honest" part, is that he understands that it is a matter of his belief while there are those who would claim that they "know".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 10:26 AM jar has replied

  
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