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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 151 of 652 (694949)
03-31-2013 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by jar
03-31-2013 10:03 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
jar writes:
But the important part, the "honest" part, is that he understands that it is a matter of his belief while there are those who would claim that they "know".
Sure, I get that.
But he's doing what most 'ordinary' believers do, rationalise away the difficult bits of the bible and hope that his fluffier version turns out to be correct - even though it's a pure invention.
There's a YouGuv poll out today that tells us that 75% of Irish people believe in Heaven but less than half believe in hell. ie, pick the bits you'd like to believe.
But saying "I don't know" to the question about whether a good person can be sent to hell should really set all sorts of alarm bells off.
Basically the "don't know" answer followed by some wishful thinking, tells me some difficult problems are being avoided - not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 10:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 10:39 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 10:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 652 (694950)
03-31-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
03-31-2013 10:26 AM


it's all about knowledge and honesty.
Basically the "don't know" answer followed by some wishful thinking, tells me some difficult problems are being avoided - not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact.
Have you ever read the Bible?
If so, then you should realize that the Bible is very seldom clear about anything. It is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and factual errors.
The author of John might be clear, but that is NOT "the Bible".
A great example is to follow the changes made in the Great Commission (the charges Jesus placed on the Disciples) over time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:11 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 652 (694951)
03-31-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
03-31-2013 10:26 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
But saying "I don't know" to the question about whether a good person can be sent to hell should really set all sorts of alarm bells off.
GDR did not say that he did not know whether a good person could be sent to hell. Given his beliefs, how could he have given that response?
You asked instead whether a good non-believing person could go to heaven. Totally different question.
not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact.
Is it? The Bible makes it clear that it ain't easy to get to heaven, even for those who profess love for Jesus.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:18 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 154 of 652 (694954)
03-31-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
03-31-2013 10:39 AM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
jar writes:
Have you ever read the Bible?
Of course I have. many times.
If so, then you should realize that the Bible is very seldom clear about anything. It is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and factual errors.
Yes, I agree, obviously the bible is tosh.
But that's not much of a defence is it? It's wrong but I believe it anyway. er, which bits do you believe? Answer, the bits that suit me and the interpretation I've made for myself.
The author of John might be clear, but that is NOT "the Bible".
And neither, as Larni says, is Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe
Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately.
The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 12:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 155 of 652 (694955)
03-31-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by NoNukes
03-31-2013 10:42 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
GDR did not say that he did not know whether a good person could be sent to hell.
This is what I asked:
Tangle writes:
So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not?
This is what he answered
The direct answer is I have no idea, but if you read my last post it would be obvious that I don't see you being excluded from life with God based on your theological beliefs.
Is it? The Bible makes it clear that it ain't easy to get to heaven, even for those who profess love for Jesus.
Yes, it's clear that the bible expects a person to believe in Christ in order to get into heaven.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 10:42 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 1:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 652 (694957)
03-31-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
03-31-2013 11:11 AM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe
No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos.
Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately.
Well no, I am not left "with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters," and don't believe that "it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately". As a very good friend on mine, an Episcopal Priest said "Hell? Fuggitabutit!"
The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it.
If that is true, then you have NOT been listening.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 3:43 PM jar has replied
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:09 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 652 (694959)
03-31-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tangle
03-31-2013 11:18 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
This is what he answered
The direct answer is I have no idea, but if you read my last post it would be obvious that I don't see you being excluded from life with God based on your theological beliefs.
Your assumption is that if you are not going to heaven you are going to hell. That's a bad assumption in my view.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 2:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 158 of 652 (694960)
03-31-2013 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Tangle
03-31-2013 3:49 AM


Re: The Afterlife
How can a God be unfair by our standards and still be regarded as moral by us?
If morality is defined as anything a god decides is moral for him, it serves no purpose for us. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not nomally regarded as the Christian message.
That depends who you ask. Zwingli, for example, the father of the Swiss reformation, wrote: "When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself, because he does not break any law. For God is under no law, and therefore cannot sin."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 159 of 652 (694961)
03-31-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by NoNukes
03-31-2013 1:36 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
No Nukes writes:
Your assumption is that if you are not going to heaven you are going to hell. That's a bad assumption in my view.
And again no. I am an atheist, so my presumption is that when I die I am going nowhere.
However, I don't have to assume anything on behalf of GDR because GDR has already told us that his belief is that hell is not being in heaven.
GDR writes:
If I had to guess, I think that hell is likely pretty similar to our current existence which is largely driven by selfish desires, whereas life with God is a life in a truly altruistic society.
That, of course, is not what every Christian believes. But then, as I say, they can pick what they prefer.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 1:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 3:23 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 167 by GDR, posted 03-31-2013 5:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 652 (694962)
03-31-2013 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Tangle
03-31-2013 2:41 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
However, I don't have to assume anything on behalf of GDR because GDR has already told us that his belief is that hell is not being in heaven.
In short, there is no hell. What do you believe happens to you when you die? If that ends up being your fate but not GDR's fate, what evil has been done to you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 2:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 652 (694963)
03-31-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 1:35 PM


An Interesting Topic On Easter
Grim writes:
..."A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system...
Or...God exists regardless of what people do or don't believe regarding His existence.
Of course, critics would then ask me why I expected said God to be the Christian One...in which case I would only be able to say that I met Jesus...which then leads to my belief that all people on earth will meet Jesus some day. But again, how do I explain and/or defend my belief further?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 1:35 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 652 (694965)
03-31-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
03-31-2013 12:05 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos.
So you don't think its possible that authors could be inspired from a source apart from themselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 12:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 3:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 163 of 652 (694966)
03-31-2013 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by NoNukes
03-31-2013 3:23 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
No Nukes writes:
In short, there is no hell.
Well GDR can speak for himself, I have no wish or reason to represent him.
However, the idea that hell is a seperation from god, rather than a pit of fire is fairly common - particularly amongst Catholics. But it would be an error to think that this is not a 'real' hell. The concept isn't of oblivion, it's of the torment of not being with god, which is the very worst thing imaginable, apparently.
Jehova's Witnesses have utterly different ideas and don't accept hell at all.
Christians can apparently believe anything they like about it - and find a defence for it in the bible - or their imaginations and revelations.
What do you believe happens to you when you die?
When I die, i'll rot and nothing else will happen to me.
If that ends up being your fate but not GDR's fate, what evil has been done to you?
I will have been deprived of everlasting happiness - or whatever it turns out to be. And if GDR is wrong and Faith and Purple are corrent, I will suffer everlasting agony.
So it goes.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 03-31-2013 3:23 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 652 (694967)
03-31-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
03-31-2013 3:43 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
It is irrelevant. Since the authors each present different stories, often mutually exclusive stories it is clear that the inspiration was either faulty or inconsistent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 3:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 165 of 652 (694970)
03-31-2013 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
03-31-2013 12:05 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
Jar writes:
If that is true, then you have NOT been listening.
Not been listening to whom? Faith, Purple, GDR, You? Who?
You all believe different things and I listen to you all. Who should I believe? is a better question.
Sadly it's none of you until you can stump up a reason to pick between y'all.
(And of course, these views are simply a handful of non-representative Christians; it necessarily excludes other Christian versions whose views vary widely - and all other religious ideas of life after death.)
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 12:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 5:13 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 03-31-2013 5:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
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