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Author Topic:   The Origin of Novelty
Taq
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Message 704 of 871 (693267)
03-13-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by mindspawn
03-12-2013 6:55 PM


Your requirement that the creator HAS TO have mixed organisms across every created grouping of organisms is a strawman argument.
Your requirement that a creator has to follow a nested hierarchy is unsupported and contradicted by everything we know about designers.
Since when does a designer HAVE to design a space rocket to also be a submarine.
Since when does a designer HAVE to make his designs fall into an objective nested hierarchy?
Another illogical argument. I never said they do not share any features. They are mammals with wings with no known transitionary fossils. They are unique.
So you searched the entire fossil record and determined that there were no transitional fossils? When did this occur?
We have so many varieties of skull shapes today. So some ancient ugly dude is now called a half-ape?
And now you are avoiding the evidence. No living human has features like those found in transitional hominids. None. Those fossils are transitional.
When you avoid the evidence like this it only invalidates your argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by mindspawn, posted 03-12-2013 6:55 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by NoNukes, posted 03-13-2013 2:28 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 708 by mindspawn, posted 03-13-2013 3:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 709 of 871 (693278)
03-13-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by mindspawn
03-13-2013 3:36 PM


No claimed transitional fossils have been found for the bat...... along with many other species.
You are making a much grander claim. You are claiming that they don't exist, not that they haven't been discovered. Can you back this up or not?
Ok place your fossils of various extinct creatures in an undated order and according to an ascending visibility of a feature.
They are in chronological order. Through time we see the emergence of modern human features.
If these are not transitional fossils, then please tell us what features a real transitional hominid fossil would have.
I'm not avoiding the evidence, I'm laughing at it.
No, you are avoiding it by laughing it off and never engaging the actual evidence. Nowhere do you discuss why those are not transitional fossils. Nowhere. You just laugh and pretend the evidence does not exist.
Features vary slightly between individuals and similar species.
WOW Just the fact that they vary , ALWAYS makes it possible to place them in an order of ascending features. How the placing them in an order somehow proves evolution ... is completely beyond me.
The very fact that they can be put in an ascending order, and only one ascending order, is the very evidence of evolution. Cars can not be put in such an ascending order. This ascending order is a nested hierarchy, and designed things do not fall into nested hierarchies.
For example, if we followed the Ford Mustang through the years we would see the sudden appearance of the air bag from other branches of the car tree. This is a gross violation of the nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by mindspawn, posted 03-13-2013 3:36 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by mindspawn, posted 03-16-2013 9:07 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 710 of 871 (693279)
03-13-2013 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by mindspawn
03-13-2013 3:01 PM


Even Lucy, our supposed missing link, was from bones lying scattered kilometers away from eachother.
That is a lie, mindspawn.
The supposed human "uprightness" is no more than an orangutan.
Another lie. The australopithecine pelvis is much more like ours than the orangutan pelvis. The australopithecine pelvis has adapatations for bipedalism that are not found in other living ape species.
Its easy to place a set of similar skulls into an order of features, what feature should we choose? Tooth size? Brain size? Uprightness? Choose a feature, then arrange them, that's not rocket science and it proves nothing.
Why not? Isn't that exactly what we should see if they are transitional fossils? You seem to be complaining that they are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by mindspawn, posted 03-13-2013 3:01 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by mindspawn, posted 03-13-2013 4:32 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 713 of 871 (693284)
03-13-2013 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by mindspawn
03-13-2013 4:01 PM


What I meant, is that mutations are only observed to be favorable when genes are damaged,
We need to see a reference for this. It appears that you are just making it up as you go.
How many of the mutations that separate humans and chimps cause damage in genes?

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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 716 of 871 (693293)
03-13-2013 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by mindspawn
03-13-2013 4:32 PM


Lie is a dramatic word.
It is a fitting description of what you are doing.
I was referring to the leg bones, I see that you are referring to the pelvis. The pelvis and feet of the gibbon are very similar to humans, does this really prove evolution?
They are? Again, you are making statements that are not supported by the facts. Check them out yourself.
The gibbon pelvis is on the bottom. All of the other ape pelvises have iliac blades that are flared along the back while australopithecines have a pelvis like humans where the iliac blades are at the sides. The gibbon pelvis is least like the human pelvis out of the apes. However, the australopithecine pelvis is much more like the modern human pelvis than any other living ape.
They are not proven transitionals. Skeletons vary. By laying them in an order , all you are proving is that life-forms vary. I don't see what else a line of skulls can prove.
So you are saying that transitionals should not vary through time? This is getting stranger by the minute. Again, you are complaining that they look transitional. Why not take the next step and admit that they are transitional.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 744 of 871 (693681)
03-19-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by mindspawn
03-16-2013 9:07 AM


All I'm saying is that no transitional fossil has been found.
What criteria are you using to determine if a fossil is transitional or not?
Oh really? I could arrange any group of vehicles into an order of engine capacity. Or an order of number of wheels. Or an order of fuel tank capacity. Any varied feature you choose. Once ordered, this does not prove the order of their manufacture.
And then I would demonstrate that they do not fall into a nested hierarchy as one would expect from intelligent design.
On the other hand, life does fall into a nested hierarchy which is consistent with evolution.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 745 of 871 (693682)
03-19-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 728 by mindspawn
03-16-2013 10:04 AM


The only claim to being "human" is the very qualities already found in a gibbon, the upright pelvis, but her shoulder bones indicate she climbed trees (like an ape). So we have a 100% ape with a gibbons "upright" pelvis. Sure she stood up straight, so do gibbons.
I already showed that a gibbon pelvis is nothing like a human or australopithecine pelvis. Do we really need to go over this again? Seriously?
Take a look for yourself:
Australopithecine pelvis:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/...PPFiY/s1600/australohipecine.jpg
Modern human pelvis:
Access denied
Gibbon pelvis:
http://yogainthesky.com/...eton-anterior-torso-and-skull.jpg
As you can clearly see, the australopithecine pelvis is much more like a modern human pelvis than the gibbon pelvis.
Unfortunately there are not enough human qualities to make big evolutionary claims.
Yes, until there are too many human qualities, and then it is no longer an ape. We already know how this game is played.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 747 of 871 (693685)
03-19-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by mindspawn
03-17-2013 5:35 PM


You make a good point regarding my view on transitional fossils. To clarify, due to the lack of DNA analysis, it is impossible to be certain that any particular fossil is in fact a transition, as opposed to being one of a grouping of similar extinct animals.
You are making the same mistake that most creationists make. Transitional does not mean ancestral. Transitional means that the fossil has a mixture of characteristics from two divergent taxa. You don't need DNA to determine this. The theory of evolution makes predictions of which transitionals you should see, and which you should not see. As you have shown, ID/creationism is incapable for making predictions in this manner because any combination of features would be consistent with ID/creationism.
That is what separates evolution from ID/creationism. Evolution can predict which combinations of features you should see and not see.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 750 of 871 (694632)
03-26-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 748 by mindspawn
03-25-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Novel protein coding gene in an Antarctic fish
They already harbor latent reservoirs.
Yes, latent reservoirs that are turned on by novel mutations. That is evolution.
I appreciate the fact that you are the first to emphasize the AMPLIFICATION that occurred in that particular example. No-one else has mentioned this, not even RAZD in our private discussion. I believe the amplification adds more to the evoltuionists argument than the initial duplication and activation. Yet I honestly feel you have not addressed the possibility that these duplications are merely copying what was already in nature. When the number of duplications goes beyond anything already found in nature, you would have a point.
A duplication is a mutation. It is a change in DNA sequence of the genome. These mutations result in novel phenotypes. This is the origin of novelty.
Natural selection could never create a promoter for oxic conditions if it was never active in oxic conditions.
A mutation put a new promoter region onto the gene, and natural selection selected for this mutant which was responsible for a novel phenotype.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 753 of 871 (695219)
04-03-2013 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by mindspawn
04-03-2013 5:22 PM


To be blunt, there is nothing that can prove a genuine transitional fossil.
Baloney. It is a fact that fossils have a mixture of features from two divergent taxa. Transitional fossils are a fact.
There are not enough of these dated sequences to make a good case for evolution, as opposed to the known fact that there was huge diversity, and now there is less diversity.
Every single transitional fossil we have is consistent with evolution. That is some serious evidence in favor of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by mindspawn, posted 04-03-2013 5:22 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 9:20 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 759 of 871 (695290)
04-04-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 754 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 9:20 AM


Oh really?
Yes, really. H. erectus has a mixture of features from modern humans and basal apes. The platypus has a mixture of features from reptiles and placental mammals. Archaeopteryx has a mixture of features from modern birds and non-avian dinosaurs. Tiktaalik roseae has a mixture of features between lobed finned fish and terrestrial vertebrates. Transitional fossils and species are a fact.
Even today we see completely differing genotypes having near identical phenotypes. This is known in evolutionary circles as "convergent evolution".
That doesn't change the fact that they are transitional.
Due to the fact that we do not have DNA analysis for so-called transitional fossils means we can never be sure if they are a transition or not.
The transitional nature of fossils is based on their morphology, not their DNA. We can determine if they are transitional by their morphology alone since that is all that is needed. Again, transitional means that the fossil has a mixture of features from two divergent taxa. THAT'S IT!!! Transitional and ancestral are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
But even so, there are so few fossils that even look transitional so that even the guesswork lacks enough quantity to be taken seriously.
Ignoring the evidence does not help your case.
Name a single fossil that does not fit into the nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 760 of 871 (695291)
04-04-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Novel protein coding gene in an Antarctic fish
This is true. Which means that a little over half the world's population has a unique gene compared to their parents. That's about 4 billion unique genes, but only about 21000 gene locations exist. Whichever way you work it out, there's millions of new alleles being created each generation due to our huge populations, and so to find a few thousand at one locus is not surprising in the least, and does not contradict the "ark" view of 8 survivors , and mutations since then.
Convergence times for both the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA are well beyond the 6,000 year mark. Human variation in these two parts of the genome already falsify a 6,000 year old Earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 10:01 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 3:57 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 769 of 871 (695332)
04-04-2013 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 3:57 PM


Re: Novel protein coding gene in an Antarctic fish
Give me figures, not sweeping statements. In what manner does "Human variation in these two parts of the genome already falsify a 6,000 year old Earth"?
"We report the discovery of an African American Y chromosome that carries the ancestral state of all SNPs that defined the basal portion of
the Y chromosome phylogenetic tree.We sequenced ~240 kb of this chromosome to identify private, derived mutations on this lineage,
which we named A00.We then estimated the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for the Y tree as 338 thousand years
ago (kya) (95% confidence interval 237—581 kya)."
http://haplogroup-a.com/Ancient-Root-AJHG2013.pdf
"A number of sequences (13%) were highly divergent and coalesced on the "mitochondrial Eve" in Africans. The remaining sequences also ultimately coalesced on this sequence but fell into four major clusters whose starlike phylogenies testify to demographic expansions. The oldest of these African expansions dates to approximately 60,000-80,000 years ago."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2010/08/100817122405.htm

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 770 of 871 (695334)
04-04-2013 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 3:25 PM


Re: Bat fossil
The problem though is that the Palaeochiropteryx is actually dated earlier than the Onychonycteris, which shows that the Onychonycteris was not necessarily transitional, but contemporary with other bat species that also preceded it.
Transitional does not mean ancestral. The platypus is transitional between reptiles and placental mammals even though the platypus is not ancestral to modern placental mammals.
But if evolution managed to find more of these fossils . . .
Theories don't dig up fossils. Humans do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 3:25 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 4:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 773 of 871 (695340)
04-04-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 4:40 PM


It has everything to do with DNA.
No, it doesn't. The transitional nature of fossils is determined solely by their morphology. It has nothing to do with DNA.
In just the same way that a tasmanian wolf is related to marsupials and not real wolves, two fossils could be vastly different in genotype and deceptively similar in phenotype.
Actually, the anatomy of the tasmanian wolf is much more like other marsupials than it is placental wolves.
For example if we find a gemsbok fossil above a steenbok fossil, it would be so easy to conclude antelope are getting larger with longer horns.
Anatomists use much more than the size of horns to determine if a fossil is intermediate.
If however they are found to be contemporary, then we know these are two separate species, and are not transitions.
A monitor lizard, a platypus, and a human are all contemporary species. A platypus is transitional between the monitor lizard and modern humans. Transitional does not mean ancestral.
Let me say this very clearly. If you found a mammal-bird transitional it would falsify evolution. Think about that for a second.
If there is a clear sequence of fossils with gradually changing features, in the correct date order, this would help evolution's case.
We already have those. The hominid transitional fossil record shows exactly that.
I was already clear, you cannot prove any particular transitional fossil.
The transitional nature of a fossil is a fact. A platypus is transitional. That is a fact. Again, you keep confusing ancestral with transitional. They are two different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 4:40 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 5:41 PM Taq has replied

  
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