Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Throw me a bone here, Phat...

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LARNI:
As I hope you are now aware I was referring to the amount of unclean animals.

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ALTER2EGO -to- LARNI:
Yes, I'm aware now that you were referring to all of the unclean animals and all of the clean ones.

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LARNI:
Do you now concede my point about the genetic bottle neck? I appreciate that you don't want to address this (thanks for the tip, Purpledawn) and I will bow out when you respnd.

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ALTER2EGO -to- LARNI:
What point was that? The one you failed to make? You presented speculations and failed to prove there were not sufficient "kinds" of animals on Noah's Ark to have resulted in every existing creature that has ever walked this earth.In my world, speculations amount to personal opinion. With all due respect, since everybody on this planet has an opinion, where did you get the idea your opinions are all that special?I am sure you and I will have ample opportunity to explore your hypothetical "bottle neck" when we start debating macroevolution myth, over in the science section of this forum.Thanks for the welcome, by the way.Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.

Since you clearly have no idea what Larni's talking about, this is a bad time for you to get all pompous and condescending.

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FAITH:
The Trinity is not specifically named in the Bible but it is implicit in a huge array of scriptural references that together add up to the concept of One God in Three Persons. Here is An Outline Study Free Text Bible Commentaries - Blue Letter Bible of the relevant scriptures.

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The affirmation that there is One God is the first reference in the outline for which he lists all the verses that apply.

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Then the facts that the Father is God, that Jesus Christ is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, are also demonstrated from the scripture verses affirming the attributes of each as the attributes of God. All three are JEHOVAH God. Jesus Christ IS Jehovah God.

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ALTER2EGO -to- FAITH:
Not once have I seen so much as a hint of trinity during my many readings from the Bible. But since you are making the claim that Trinity is "implicit in a huge array of scriptural references," I invite you to present six (6) of your best scriptural examples of this "implicit" teachingBTW: The weblink you provided is a typical example of "Elephant Hurling." I clicked on it and was confronted by a wall of text. Amidst the personal philosophy of the blog's author, there were splatterings of scriptures that the blogger did not even bother to quote. So there's no telling how he/she drew the conclusion that the various verses are with reference to trinity.FYI: Anyone can (1) cherry pick verses, (2) isolate a few words within each verse--while deliberately ignoring the context, and (3) proceed to tell people their personal philosophy. According to "cherry pickers," the out-of-context verses they present is proof positive that the Bible is saying what they claim it is saying. That's what the blogger did at the weblink you provided. When context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters) is paid attention to, it soon becomes clear that the verses are not with reference to trinity.As I said, feel free to present about six verses of scripture that you consider your best examples of "implicit trinity in the Bible." Be sure and quote each verse and explain where you are seeing trinity. Also, please identify each quoted scripture with Bible book, chapter, and verse so that others can locate the verses in their own Bibles. Once we've resolved the first six verses, we will move on to another six of your choice.Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.

If you move your mouse pointer over a reference, the relevant verse pops up.Your other complaint seems to be that there's a whole lot of it. So there is. That's easier to say than to do.

The outline I linked is quite a standard presentation of the scriptures that underlie the concept of One God in Three Persons, which is the Christian Trinity.I understand it can be overwhelming to be given so much material at once, but this really IS how the Trinity is proved from scripture. It requires the presentation of the many verses on which it is based to get across just how biblical it is, and it IS a thoroughly BIBLICAL concept, derived wholly from the Bible and not a manmade tradition in any way.As Dr. A pointed out, the verses are immediately available to you by merely hovering over the Bible reference. It's a very handy feature of the Blue Letter Bible site.The scriptures given at the link show God described as One God, and God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit described in terms of attributes that belong only to God, showing that they are all God, and describes each of the three as independent personalities as well. Putting it all together gets you One God in Three Persons.It's counterintuitive, not something anyone COULD have made up, but why should we expect God to be easily comprehended by our fallen intellect?Any resemblance to pagan trinities is purely imaginary. They have notions of three gods, and nothing at all like One God in Three Persons, which is the Christian formulation that goes back at least to Athanasius. What you call the "personal philosophy" of the author is, as far as I can see, standard Christian theology and not his own personal philosophy at all.You claim the context disputes various of the above conclusions, in which case I assume you can show me an instance or two from that link that does so?Perhaps when I have more time I will follow up your request to pick a few that make the point so they can be discussed separately.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : various small corrections

I haven't gone through all the verses of the source and I don't know if your source mentions it, but what does it say about Mark 13:32? It reads: One part not knowing what the other knows. Doesn't make sense for a 3-in-1 God or Gods. Do they have different brains? Did the writers of the Book of Mark make a mistake in claiming that Jesus said this? Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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FAITH:
The outline I linked is quite a standard presentation of the scriptures that underlie the concept of One God in Three Persons, which is the Christian Trinity.

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ALTER2EGO -to- FAITH:
The "standard presentation" for trinity is to cherry pick a few words out of an entire verse, ignore the context, and then give personal interpretations of the out-of-context words. I mentioned that to you in my previous response; remember?

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FAITH:
As Dr. A pointed out, the verses are immediately available to you by merely hovering over the Bible reference. It's a very handy feature of the Blue Letter Bible site.

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ALTER2EGO -to- FAITH::
You don't get, do you? When presenting scriptures in support of questionable religious doctrines, the requirement is that the verse be quoted so that the words being focused on can be bolded or italicized for the benefit of others. Then a brief explanation should be given for why the verse means what the "cherry picker" is claiming it means. When I hover my mouse over the scriptures at the Trinitarian blog you sent me to, all I see is an ordinary quotation with nothing bolded. So I cannot tell which words were the focus of the Trinitarian blogger and why he/she concluded that the verses are proof of trinity.

Really? Any references to that requirement? Do you ignore the parts the individual 'quoters' did not 'bold' or 'italize' to his or her liking?You people. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

English is a funny language, isn't it? In French, "of" and "from" are the same word but in English they're quite different. Readings "of' the Bible would suggest that you read the whole thing but readings "from" the Bible could mean that you read one verse forty times.By saying that you "haven't seen" any hint of the Trinity, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You could be cherry-picking what you don't see the same way you accuse the trinitarians of cherry-picking what they do see.To be honest, you do know what the hints at a Trinity are, don't you? You do see the evidence, don't you? You just don't agree with the interpretation.

The Trinity is not made up of "parts." They are three separate individual Persons or personalities, and that is what this scripture verse affirms. They all have the attributes of God but they each have separate individual roles. So this verse is perfectly consistent with the Trinity as taught. It is a hard concept to grasp, but you aren't asked to grasp it, merely recognize what it actually says.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What I presented gives enough information for you to understand the point. It's rather odd to call so many references "cherry picking" but if it is then you ought to be able to find many verses that say something different than those say. Have at it.There is absolutely nothing "questionable" about the Trinity doctrine, it has been the doctrine of the true Church back to the early Fathers. Jehovah's Witnesses and others who think God ought to be bendable to human thought have merely revived the ancient heresy of Arianism which was definitively answered in the early centuries. You are free to believe the heresy, but it won't be because there is anything wrong with my argument.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The "standard presentation" for trinity is to cherry pick a few words out of an entire verse, ignore the context, and then give personal interpretations of the out-of-context words. I mentioned that to you in my previous response; remember?

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But that's your job to show the flaws in her facts or her logic. It's on you to show that a verse has been cherry picked.

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You don't get, do you? When presenting scriptures in support of questionable religious doctrines, the requirement is that the verse be quoted so that the words being focused on can be bolded or italicized for the benefit of others. Then a brief explanation should be given for why the verse means what the "cherry picker" is claiming it means. When I hover my mouse over the scriptures at the Trinitarian blog you sent me to, all I see is an ordinary quotation with nothing bolded. So I cannot tell which words were the focus of the Trinitarian blogger and why he/she concluded that the verses are proof of trinity.

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Faith is very good at presenting scripture in religious discussions and she did provide you with a link to the standard selection of scriptures used to support the concept of the Trinity. You asked for the scriptures that support the teachings of the Trinity. She also gave her explanations. We don't encourage large blocks of cut and paste.You're the one claiming the doctrine is questionable. I don't see that she claims her position was due to specific words. It's your turn to provide some support and reasoned argumentation supporting your claim.Hey, I'm impressed they didn't use 1 John 5:7 (Didn't see it anyway)

Faith writes: Really? Then the son should know exactly what the Father and the Holy Ghost know, too. Doesn't make sense. Three individual Gods, then. So, not 3 in 1 then, but 1 in 3. Only one 'person' knows something, the other 'persons 'don't. Three completely different parts, then. So, one actor playing three roles without kowing exactly what the other roles are supposed to represent. Even though they're supposed to be Almighty. Nope. Not consistent at all. All three of them are supposed to be almighty and know it all. Not hard at all. Wishful thinking. Easy. Anyone can imagine exactly what a person wants to imagine. Green wings on the favourite fairy.You still haven't answered why only one in three knows it, the other two don't.By the way, did you find the verse I mentioned in the link you provided or did that source ignore it?Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

I think that you are making some assumptions there that aren’t Biblical. First off, it isn’t like they are three separate persons. In one way it is like three separate aspects of the one God. When you read through the Gospels we can see that Jesus understood His vocation through His understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, His referring to Himself as the Son of Man is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7. His understanding that to lead means to serve goes back to Isaiah. Riding into Jerusalem on a donkey shows that He understood as Himself to be the Messiah in reference to the passage in Jeremiah.Also through the Hebrew Scriptures there is the message that God will return to His people and that He will be their King. Jesus combined the messianic message and Daniel 7 into an understanding that through him, Jesus the man, God was returning to His people and that He was to establish that Kingdom as the embodiment of God. As He said to Pilate that it wasn't a kingdom of this world but a kingdom for this world. It would be a kingdom of people who were to take God’s message of truth, love, peace, mercy, justice and forgiveness to the world. (Not doing much of a job of it are we. )The Holy Spirit of God was not something new. God always spoke to the and through the hearts of humans who had always been resistant to His still small voice, which is obvious as we read the OT and see the incredible acts of cruelty performed by the very people that were supposed to be the agents of bring His peace and love to the world. However, through all that God’s message of love still survived and Jesus pulled all of those threads together and perfectly presented God’s will for His created beings to the world, and if we believe in the resurrection of Jesus then we can have confidence that Jesus, the man, truly did embody God’s return as God vindicated and confirmed Jesus through His resurrection. The resurrection is the key and the starting point of Christianity. I think that we have to be very careful that we don’t take ancient Jewish apocalyptic writings too literally. There are other threads on hell and I’ll just repeat what I said in other threads. I will say though, that it isn't about committing wicked deeds as you put it, but about what our hearts truly desire. It is our hearts that God wants. He wants hearts that desire His desires for us. He wants hearts that embrace love, peace, justice, forgiveness etc.