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Author Topic:   Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 77 (695632)
04-08-2013 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-08-2013 2:23 AM


Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously or by accident and wind up in the opposite realm as Scientific Law? Or is the precision seen among the elements on the Periodic Table evidence of intelligent design?

Why just 60? Why not all 90 or so of the elements that appear in nature?

The basis for the order in the periodic table is well known. Perhaps the mysticism you are hinting at is more apparent to people who have never taken a chemistry or physics course.

It turns out that the behavior of atoms can be predicted from knowing a few masses and charges and some mathematics. All atoms are made up of the same basic particles (neutrons, protons, and electrons) and while some of these particles are themselves divisible, we don't need knowledge of those detals to be able to accurately predict the chemical properties of the atoms. The math accurately predicts the order and similarity of the properties of the elements.

The 'precision' that you are awed by is a gross simplification of what can be known about atoms from a small amount of mathematics. In fact, given natural laws, the properties of atoms are neither chance, nor design, but are inevitable.

One might as well say that it is by chance that you remain attached to earth's surface rather than floating off into the cosmos.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-08-2013 2:23 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-10-2013 1:49 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 20 of 77 (695832)
04-09-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Alter2Ego
04-09-2013 3:48 AM


Notice above that each of the planets in our solar system have varying fields of gravity. It is that variation in gravitational pull, combined with the mass and size of each planet, that keeps each planet within its individual elliptical orbit. Keep your eyes on the words bolded in sea green in the remainder of the quotation below.

It is probably impossible to provide an argument that will convince you of your error. But let's try these.

Do you understand that any object having of any mass having the same distance from the sun and velocity as Mars has at a point in Mars' orbit will travel in the essentially the same orbit. It is the sun's gravity that determines a planets orbit. A planet's weaker gravity in turn moves the sun a tiny bit. That tiny bit certainly does not explain why Jupiter is five times further away from the sun than Earth, while Mars is about 1.5 times further from the sun despite being less massive than earth/

Did you notice when posting your data that Venus and Uranus had similar surface gravity (totally irrelevant), but yet Venus orbit is about 25 times smaller than that of Uranus?

id you notice that the last part of the quotation from the source said "Gravity is what keeps each planet on track and not flying all over the place"?

Yes, where 'not flying all over the place' would mean leaving the solar system on a straight line path.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 3:48 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 1:50 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 24 of 77 (695915)
04-10-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Alter2Ego
04-10-2013 1:49 AM


You are proving my point: that the elements on the Periodic Table are precise

No I am not. In fact the idea that elements are precise has absolutely no meaning.

What is the case is that when the elements are placed in order by their atomic number, which is simply a count of the number of protons in each atom, we can discern some gross patterns in chemical behavior. However these patterns, and some less evident ones are infinitely predictable by knowing a relativity small set of information about protons, electrons.

Where in that does anything regarding some divine precision enter?

Is it your position that the predictable atoms are the result of spontaneous events or accidents?

Your question is inane and make no sense. You are misusing the terms accident and precise in ways that do not promote communication.

Are you telling this forum that none of the elements on the Periodic Table are evidence of intelligent design?

I'm telling you that. The periodic table demonstrates order, but the source of that order is well known. The order results from a rather small number of properties of protons, neutrons, and electrons. (mass, charge, spin, etc.).

Your conclusion is that Order = Design.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-10-2013 1:49 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 33 of 77 (696026)
04-11-2013 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 1:50 AM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
You provided the following quote. I added some emphasis

quote:
Orbital Speed
The mass formula above tells you that satellites orbiting massive planets must move faster than satellites orbiting low-mass planets at the same distance. Massive planets have stronger gravity than low-mass planets so a satellite orbiting a massive planet is accelerated by a greater amount than one going around a lesser mass planet at the same distance. To balance the stronger inward gravitational pull of the massive planet, the satellite must move faster in its orbit than if it was orbiting a lesser mass planet. Of course, this also applies to planets orbiting stars, stars orbiting other stars, etc.

Do you understand that your quote demonstrates my point and not yours.

The subject matter of the statement above is satellites orbiting planets. The quote says that in that case the mass of the planet and not the mass of the satellite determines the orbital speed.

Now consider the solar system. In that case, the sun is serving the position of massive planets in your quote, while the planets are satellites orbiting the sun. So which mass would the principle of your quote say determines the orbit of the planets (satellites)? The sun and not the planets. In fact, the last sentence of your quote says exactly that.

BTW: I notice you evaded all three of the questions I asked you. I need not wonder why.

I did not evade your questions. I do not believe I have the ability to convince you of too much because of your lack of knowledge about the topic. I have no illusion that you will be able to understand either the explanation I've just given you or the one that Dr. Adequate offered.

If the sun's gravity was the only deciding factor, the sun would have long since pulled the other planets into itself because the sun has a stronger gravitational field and gravity causes planets to pull inwards.

You don't trust anyone here, so if there is any person offline you can trust, who knows even a little about astronomy, I suggest that you ask them about your statement above. But you are beyond my help. I'll take whatever suspension this comment has earned, but you are an absolute buffoon.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 1:50 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 12:30 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 40 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 12:32 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 60 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 10:46 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 77 (696053)
04-11-2013 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 12:32 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
QUESTION #4 to NO NUKES: Did you notice that the source specifically says the smaller planet "must move faster" and that it did not say the larger planet makes the smaller planet move faster?

Since you have your finger directly on the issue, I'll make another attempt to explain. I will quote here only the two sentences that you are misinterpreting. My own emphasis added.

quote:
Massive planets have stronger gravity than low-mass planets so a satellite orbiting a massive planet is accelerated by a greater amount than one going around a lesser mass planet at the same distance. To balance the stronger inward gravitational pull of the massive planet, the satellite must move faster in its orbit than if it was orbiting a lesser mass planet

The two quoted sentences explicitly say that a more massive planet causes a satellite orbiting the more massive planet to go faster than the satellite would go if were orbiting a smaller planet. Note that no mention is made of the mass of the satellite. That's because the mass of the satellite, as long as it is small compared to the planet, is irrelevant.

Short summary: The mass of the planet determines the speed of the satellite (and of course other aspects of the satellite's orbit).

What the statement does NOT say is that more massive satellites move faster or slower or in different orbits than less massive satellites. I believe that misconception to be the source of your error.

Now when we consider the solar system in light of our (new??) understanding of the quote, we see that for the solar system the SUN takes the place in the quote of the massive planet while the PLANETS, because they orbit the SUN, take the place of the satellites.

So substitute SUN for 'massive planet' and PLANETS for 'satellites' in your quote and observe the result. In this case, there is no substitute for 'lesser mass planet' in the quote because there is no second SUN for the planets to orbit. But we can say that if we considered planets orbiting the massive star Betelguese, that the quote accurately suggests that such planets would have to move faster their orbits that would planets a similar distance from our sun Sol.

Again, since you have been so successful in reducing the issue to only a couple of sentences, I will be willing to explain further if I think I can help. I appreciate your tenacity in what appears to be an honest effort to understand.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : Add info regarding larger suns.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 12:32 PM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 04-11-2013 2:59 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 50 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 4:25 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 77 (696056)
04-11-2013 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 12:30 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
You are the only person between us two who thinks that to be the case. If the other planets did not have their own field of gravity, the sun would have been able to suck them in. That's what you will never admit because you have a difficult time admitting you are in error.

I suppose it is true that I am the only one of the two of us who agrees with me. I'll also state that I don't find it particularly difficult to admit error.

I am going to make a request that may be out of the ordinary for a forum in which I am suppose to supply my own arguments. But I understand that you will not trust me despite the fact that I am far more knowledgable on this subject than you.

Please perform a google search using 'Why do planets orbit the sun'. When I tried the search myself, I turned up plenty of correct answers. I'll provide you with a link to one of them, but I encourage you to find an answer on your own. Please ignore any hits you get that point to your own, er answers.

The most simple answers I found were these:

The gravity of the sun keeps the planets in their orbits. The stay in their orbits because there is no other force in the solar system which can stop them.

More than 99 percent of all the mass in the solar system is in the Sun. The gravitational pull of this huge mass causes planets and most other objects in the solar system to move around, or orbit, the Sun.

But please feel free to report on what you find.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 12:30 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 77 (696058)
04-11-2013 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 10:29 AM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
As you can see, NASA, the last source I quoted, used the expression "just like other planets" when describing Pluto. That can only mean one thing: Pluto is indeed a planet.

Did you also read further done on the same web page the explanation of why Pluto is not called a planet anymore? What did you make of that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 10:29 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 3:52 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 77 (696081)
04-11-2013 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 4:25 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Notice the portion within the above quotation that I bolded in light green. The source also says that the satellite "must move faster in its orbit," indicating that the satellite's own gravitational forces are a contributing factor and that the more massive planet is not the only reason why the smaller planet speeds up.

Now you are just making things up. The satellite must move faster. Yes the source does say that.

On the other hand, "the sources own gravitational forces are a contributing factor" is something you made up out of whole cloth. It is not part of the source and it is not implied by the source. What the source DOES say is that the mass of the body that the satellite orbits does matter. It is completely silent about any other effect.

Let me provide an example of the behavior I'm describing. Imagine a space ship orbiting the earth and performing a docking operation with the International Space Station. Despite the fact that the space ship is only a fraction of the size of the space station, all that is necessary for the space ship to match the orbit of the space station is for the space ship to match the velocity and position of the space station. Once that is done the space ship and the space station will stay in matching orbits.

Were your proposal to be correct, it would be impossible for two objects having different masses to match orbits even around the same massive body. Yet we both know that this 'impossible' task is routinely done.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 4:25 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (696085)
04-11-2013 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
04-11-2013 12:53 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Is English not your first language?

Is this Alter2Ego's first universe?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-11-2013 12:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-11-2013 8:52 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 77 (696088)
04-11-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 3:52 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Then in 2006, the International Astronomical Union decided that a new system of classification was needed to describe what is to be referred to as "planet.' In other words, it's nothing but a game of semantics--which I will not play.

What you are calling semantics is what astronomers would call using correct scientific terminology. If you simply refuse to use that terminology, then that does indeed end part of the discussion.

The problem for you is that you there is no reasonable definition of planet that results in a count of nine for the solar system and you have stated that there are nine planets. Using your definition, how do you classify Ceres, Pluto, Haumea, Makemake, and Eris. Eris is larger than Pluto and has a moon to boot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 3:52 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 77 (696093)
04-11-2013 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by New Cat's Eye
04-11-2013 8:52 PM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Of course it is. He very well could be trolling, but if he's having trouble understanding English then that would also make sense.

But obviously, what he says his quotes are saying is not what they are actually saying... so something's wrong.

It could be that Alter2Ego sees what he/she expects to see.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-11-2013 8:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-12-2013 12:12 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 61 of 77 (696102)
04-11-2013 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 10:46 PM


Irony meter hits the peg.
It rhymes with sore loser. You know, buffoon and lose. I hear stuff like that wherever I debate people who can't accept defeat gracefully.

When the straight man delivers lines like these, the comedian is almost superfluous.

I admit defeat. It is beyond my power to teach you anything about physics. Perhaps Dr. Adequate or someone else will prove to be my better.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 10:46 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dogmafood, posted 04-12-2013 8:17 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 77 (697063)
04-20-2013 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Alter2Ego
04-20-2013 9:52 PM


A list according to a theme.
What do the following have in common.

1. The 92 natural elements
2. The existence of Laws or precision indicates it was deliberately done.
3. nobody can explain how Big Bang--which is nothing more than a theory about expanding space--could have resulted in the appearance of planets.
4. The millions of planets in the universe
5. gravitational fields that keep them within their own orbits

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-20-2013 9:52 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 77 (697111)
04-21-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Alter2Ego
04-20-2013 9:52 PM


Answer key.
1. The 92 natural elements
2. The existence of Laws or precision indicates it was deliberately done.
3. nobody can explain how Big Bang--which is nothing more than a theory about expanding space--could have resulted in the appearance of planets.
4. The millions of planets in the universe
5. gravitational fields that keep them within their own orbits.

Answers
1. Ninety eight of the elements on the periodic table actually occur naturally.
2. Laws are descriptive of nature. They are formulated after whatever was done was done.
3. It's easy to find explanations of how planets formed subsequent to the Big Bang. I suppose I should assign half credit for acknowledging that the Big Bang happened.
4. Millions of planets? Yes, but only in the same sense that there are dozens of people on earth.
5. Planets gravitational field keep them within their own orbits? This is total nonsense, but after seeing your newest, and most ridiculous to date thread proposal I now see why you insist on saying this.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-20-2013 9:52 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 71 of 77 (697132)
04-21-2013 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2013 3:16 PM


We'll add quantum mechanics and the meaning of the word "theory" to the list of things you don't understand, then.

It's a lot easier to not add QM and the meaning of theory to the much shorter list I'm keeping.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2013 3:16 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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