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Author Topic:   Did Dinosaurs live with man?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 166 of 373 (696176)
04-12-2013 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-12-2013 8:03 PM


Re: The cat...
In the first paragraph of that useless article you cited we find the claim:
This recalled the radiocarbon (RC) dating by Dr. Walter Libby's team of collagen from "dense mid-shaft femur bones" of twelve extinct saber tooth tigers, [Smilodon] from the LeBrea Tar Pits of Los Angeles CA.2 The RC ages for extracted bone collagen for Smilodon femurs ranged from 12,650 160 to 28,000 1400 RC years BP (Before the Present). According to Dr. Libby, the inventor of the radiocarbon dating method, "There is no known natural mechanism by which collagen may be altered to yield a false age."
This is a standard creationist claim resulting from sloppy research.
This claim usually takes the form:
Bones of a sabre-toothed tiger from the LaBrea Tar Pits (near Los Angeles), supposedly 100,000 to 1000,000 years old, gave a date of 28,000 years. (Radiocarbon, vol. 10, 1968)
The citation above is more screwed up than is normal even for creationists! The Smilodon bones were not dated by Willard (not Walter) Libby at Chicago, but rather by Rainer Berger (at UCLA), with Libby as a co-author on the paper. The radiocarbon dates all bear the UCLA prefix! This would have been a clue if the creationists had even read the Radiocarbon article they cited. But they didn't bother to read it! They just copied (incorrectly) some nonsense from another creationist website.
An analysis of the dating errors appears here:
A Look at Creation Science Part III
In brief, creationists got it somehow into their silly heads that the dates for should be "100,000 to 1000,000 years old" so when the UCLA laboratory dated them at 12,650-28,000 years they said, "Aha! We've got them this time!" And they've been crowing about it ever since. Unfortunately, they have been wrong from the start.
Research of this quality, which is typical, has undermined everything the creationists claim about radiocarbon dating.
(I can provide more examples if you want. Be warned: you won't like them!)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-12-2013 8:03 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 167 of 373 (696199)
04-13-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Dr Adequate
04-12-2013 9:34 PM


Re: The cat...
Are you saying that the fresh collagen reported in Hell Creek and other dragon bones was a contamination, Inadequate? Whether contamination is possible in principle is not the issue. Of course, it might be possible whatever Libby may say. The issue though I am investigating here is the dragon and not the tiger or any other beast.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-12-2013 9:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 10:57 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 168 of 373 (696201)
04-13-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-13-2013 10:52 AM


Re: The cat...
Are you saying that the fresh collagen reported in Hell Creek and other dragon bones was a contamination, Inadequate?
Of course not. "The fresh collagen reported in Hell Creek and other dragon bones was a contamination" would in fact be some moronic bibble that you wrote. You can tell that by the way it appears in your post and not mine.
The issue though I am investigating here is the dragon and not the tiger or any other beast.
Well, find us some dragons. Or evidence of dragons. Until then, your investigation seems to be drawing a blank.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-13-2013 10:52 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-13-2013 11:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 169 of 373 (696204)
04-13-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dr Adequate
04-13-2013 10:57 AM


Re: The cat...
So if the collagen is as fresh as reported, what is its minimum rate of decay? The rule of necessity is any molecular motion unregulated by the living will and intelligence of death-dodging machines is decay of some sort. All is relative motion of some sort and nothing is ever keeping still. It takes the constant living effort, division of labour, vibrant communication required by the division and so on to combat the death and disintegration. No exceptions. In the light of that, is 70 or 170 million years preservation possible or is it just a miracle believed in your church, Inadequate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 10:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 4:16 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 170 of 373 (696224)
04-13-2013 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-13-2013 11:51 AM


Re: The cat...
So if the collagen is as fresh as reported ...
Who reported that? The voices in your head?
The rule of necessity is any molecular motion unregulated by the living will and intelligence of death-dodging machines is decay of some sort. All is relative motion of some sort and nothing is ever keeping still. It takes the constant living effort, division of labour, vibrant communication required by the division and so on to combat the death and disintegration. No exceptions.
That would be so much more convincing if you hadn't just made it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-13-2013 11:51 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-13-2013 7:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 171 of 373 (696236)
04-13-2013 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Dr Adequate
04-13-2013 4:16 PM


Re: The cat...
It's in the latest Nature, Inadequate. Their estimate is that Lufengosaurus egg nest found and analysed is 190 million years old. They report eggshell fragments, embryo bones and collagen well preserved.
Is all of this really of that age? Your neo-darwinian gurus claim it is. The bible pushers laugh at your gurus and wipe the floor with them in any debate. Now acid dissolves eggshells and like Ecclesiastes rightly noted the passage of time leaves a sour taste. That book is not selling any nonsense like you do. It's all solid thinking. Read what it has to say on the silly simian pretences to measure anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 4:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 7:39 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 172 of 373 (696239)
04-13-2013 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-13-2013 7:04 PM


Re: The cat...
It's in the latest Nature, Inadequate.
Your delusions are not in Nature. This is.
Your neo-darwinian gurus claim it is. The bible pushers laugh at your gurus and wipe the floor with them in any debate. Now acid dissolves eggshells and like Ecclesiastes rightly noted the passage of time leaves a sour taste. That book is not selling any nonsense like you do. It's all solid thinking. Read what it has to say on the silly simian pretences to measure anything.
We already know that creationists have duped you. You needn't belabor the point.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-13-2013 7:04 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-14-2013 12:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 173 of 373 (696270)
04-14-2013 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Dr Adequate
04-13-2013 7:39 PM


Re: The cat...
So, still dancing around the bush and the issue together with Coy Boy, Inadequate? Like a pretty shy girl, dear? It's either that the soft tissues can possibly take 190 million years to not finish decomposing or they can not. The cat's conclusion is that they are bound to rot much faster than that and therefore you and your whole crypto-creo bigbanger lot are greater bullshitters than the bible pushers. Nobody ain't got no slightest clue as to the age of the earth and the rest of chronology and stuff. Just like King Solomon of Ecclesiastes and the feline say. Face it. That's why the simians are currently deserting your sect in droves. The bible pushers at least have some hope on offer for them. What have you got? Nothing apart from the rotting crap off your learned mouth.
Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2013 7:39 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Pressie, posted 04-14-2013 4:58 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied
 Message 175 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2013 11:55 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied
 Message 176 by Coyote, posted 04-14-2013 12:14 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 174 of 373 (696285)
04-14-2013 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-14-2013 12:54 AM


Re: The cat...
Alfred Maddenstein writes:
So, still dancing around the bush and the issue together with Coy Boy, Inadequate? Like a pretty shy girl, dear? It's either that the soft tissues can possibly take 190 million years to not finish decomposing or they can not.
They can take much longer. Depends on things like the method of preservation.
Fossils trapped trapped in amber, for example. Two mites, trapped in fossilized tree resin, broke the record for ancient amber-preserved arthropods with an age of 230 million years. You can even have a look at the photo's, yourself.
http://www.sciencenews.org/...dest_mites_in_amber_discovered
Traces of blood can be preserved for at least 20 million years as a fossil with traces of it's own blood was found in amber. 20 million years old.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...1004_spider_blood.html
Beats 6 000 years.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-14-2013 12:54 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-14-2013 5:25 PM Pressie has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 175 of 373 (696312)
04-14-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-14-2013 12:54 AM


Re: The cat...
So, still dancing around the bush and the issue together with Coy Boy, Inadequate? Like a pretty shy girl, dear? It's either that the soft tissues can possibly take 190 million years to not finish decomposing or they can not. The cat's conclusion is that they are bound to rot much faster than that and therefore you and your whole crypto-creo bigbanger lot are greater bullshitters than the bible pushers. Nobody ain't got no slightest clue as to the age of the earth and the rest of chronology and stuff. Just like King Solomon of Ecclesiastes and the feline say. Face it. That's why the simians are currently deserting your sect in droves. The bible pushers at least have some hope on offer for them. What have you got? Nothing apart from the rotting crap off your learned mouth.
Buried in the schizophasia there appear to be some nuggets of mere delusional ideation, would you care to expand on them?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-14-2013 12:54 AM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 176 of 373 (696313)
04-14-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-14-2013 12:54 AM


Re: The cat...
So, still dancing around the bush and the issue...
You accuse us of this after the useless drivel you inflict upon us?
What a joke!
You've been "dancing around the bush and issue" ever since you were challenged to provide evidence of dragons. All you needed to do was provide evidence, but you don't have any.
The evidence is against you -- the earth is old, and dinosaurs did not live with man. They missed by some 65 million years.
And dragons never existed.
You have any evidence to the contrary, now's the time to present it and forget the useless drivel you usually post.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-14-2013 12:54 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-15-2013 2:12 PM Coyote has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 177 of 373 (696326)
04-14-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Pressie
04-14-2013 4:58 AM


Re: The cat...
That is circular, Press. You assume you've measured how long this or that stayed here or there and then your assert that what was inside was preserved according to your assumption that you know the duration.
The cat has only said you have no clue. Understand? Did you hear him measure it as 6000 years old? If not why does your silly baboonish paw put your stupid simian measurements into the Cheshire's mouth? The Earth itself is as likely as not to be trillions of years of intrinsic age. Nobody knows. Understand? The issue here is who or what killed the dragons, not the age of the earth. Otherwise those who propagate beliefs that the entire universe banged from nothing 13.8 billion years ago look very silly patronising any body with similar faith but different figures. The bible pushers at least don't suggest violating the laws of conservation like you crypto-creo lot do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Pressie, posted 04-14-2013 4:58 AM Pressie has not replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 178 of 373 (696370)
04-15-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Coyote
04-14-2013 12:14 PM


Re: The cat...
How sure are you about any single one among the string of bald assertions you just shot at the feline, Coy Boy? Dragons and simians missed each other by 65 million years, you say? You missed by a long mile what Ecclesiastes, Pliny and the feline tell you. Do you understand what 65 million years means? It's a very long distance. The only steady reference is the distance travelled by the light signal as compared to the length of your baboonish arm. A lot can happen along that way. Far too far for your grabbing action, in any case.
Now simians eat rice so did dragons as the Indian fellow who studied the composition of their shit reports. How do you explain that, Coy Boy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Coyote, posted 04-14-2013 12:14 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2013 2:19 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied
 Message 182 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-15-2013 3:48 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 179 of 373 (696371)
04-15-2013 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-15-2013 2:12 PM


Re: The cat...
How sure are you about any single one among the string of bald assertions you just shot at the feline, Coy Boy? Dragons and simians missed each other by 65 million years, you say?
I follow the evidence, and that's what the evidence says. You, on the other hand, are apparently following old myths that have long since been shown to be inaccurate.
You missed by a long mile what Ecclesiastes, Pliny and the feline tell you.
Don't much care what any of those say. I'll follow the evidence instead.
Do you understand what 65 million years means? It's a very long distance. The only steady reference is the distance travelled by the light signal as compared to the length of your baboonish arm. A lot can happen along that way. Far too far for your grabbing action, in any case.
Gibberish not worthy of a response.
Now simians eat rice so did dragons as the Indian fellow who studied the composition of their shit reports. How do you explain that, Coy Boy?
Any references to all of that? Or is that just something you made up or misinterpreted, same as usual?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-15-2013 2:12 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-15-2013 3:04 PM Coyote has replied

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 180 of 373 (696373)
04-15-2013 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Coyote
04-15-2013 2:19 PM


Re: The cat...
Blah, blah, blah, Coy Boy. Just google Vandana Prasad and dragon coprolites and you'll get the papers. Not only rice but also oats. Oryza means rice or rice-like, Avena - refers to oats and both figure in the long list of grasses consumed by the Indian dragons according to the composition of their fossilised crap.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2013 2:19 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 04-15-2013 3:13 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

  
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