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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 37 of 213 (69329)
11-25-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 8:50 PM


The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude, for you to say rape reveals your hoped for bias. It does not say rape nor does it imply rape.

Why then did he order them to kill everything except the virgin females?

He implicily orders the soldiers to keep the virgins "for themselves".

What do you make of this?

Some invading army kills your parents, siblings, animals, takes all your posessions destroys your home etc. Captures you, and forces you to be his 'possesion'. How is this not rape? cuz Im sure a bunch of horny isrelite soldiers on the rampage, with a bunch of nubile young captives aren't gonna rape sombody.

If you need a more explicit endorsement try these which I posed in an earlyer discusion:

Judges 21:10-24

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

And this little gem:

DEUT 20:10-14 As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

So, does god endorse rape, at least by implication?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:28 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 51 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:31 PM Yaro has not yet responded

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 38 of 213 (69461)
11-26-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


WILLOWTREE writes:

The CLAIM of the Bible is that it is the word of God.

I disagree. Perhaps you can share with us the quote (chapter and verse) where this claim is made? I don't believe you will discover such a statement.

Good or bad whatever God says comes to pass.

This sounds wrong to me. I think of the example of the great Flood which God said he was doing to cleanse the world of evil. Well, evil continued didn’t it? And after the flood, God promises not to destroy the world like that again because he now realizes that people are inherently evil. Genesis 8:21

I also recall a number of other instances where God predicts things which simply don't happen. Then, of course, he blames mere humans for whatever problem He has making his predictions come true.

Sounds to me like you could benefit from more Bible reading and less listening to the sales pitch of its preachers.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 2:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Weyland
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 213 (69557)
11-27-2003 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 4:46 PM


Re: Reply to Atheists
Am I the only one to find this particular gem a little odd?

WILLOWTREE writes:


His unconditional love has one condition : that a person respond to it in a predetermined amount of time only known to God.

Now I'm obviously being a bit dim over here, but what's described here is by definition NOT unconditional love. That is love with strings attached.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 4:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Ragnarok10
Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 40 of 213 (69684)
11-28-2003 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Yaro
11-22-2003 7:04 PM


quote:
This God ordered rape, murder, and infantaside.

Rape? When? Where? Murder? Let me define murder.
Murder : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought. I can explain infanticide, but let me postpone that till later.

Actually, there has been several conjectures about the residents of Canaan and other places being the descendants of Nephillim. As far as my belief goes, in the OT, God is a Holy Being who is disgusted by man's Sin. That is why He ordered those residents to be killed. But NT, it is different. (Notice Old and New? Yeah, that means something is different) God makes a Covenant, a New Covenant with man by sending Jesus so that the people do not have to try to be good. At this time, men are saved by GRACE, not by Faith alone. And by having Jesus sacrificed at the cross, God makes all of those who believe in Him just. (Rom 3:23~~) And you have to remember that out of all of God's Divine Attributes, His Will precedes all. Since His Will came up, let's delve into His Holiness and this whole muder and infanticide thing more.

You say that He ruthlessly "ordered" Israelites to kill those residents. But how about when He killed His own people when they complained? Again, this goes to show that anyone who was unholy was killed. It didn't matter if you had personal relationshpi with God like Moses. When Moses let his anger get better of him, God also punished Moses. So basically, it was "Eye for Eye, and Ear for Ear" AGain, this is made different in NT, which again, proves that God's Will is the foremost of all of His Attributes. I think I rambled enough. That's all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Yaro, posted 11-22-2003 7:04 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NosyNed, posted 11-28-2003 10:38 AM Ragnarok10 has not yet responded
 Message 42 by Yaro, posted 11-28-2003 11:34 AM Ragnarok10 has responded

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8863
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 41 of 213 (69696)
11-28-2003 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 5:54 AM


Murder? Let me define murder.

We had that discussion when talking about abortion. It is not murder if it is legal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 5:54 AM Ragnarok10 has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 42 of 213 (69697)
11-28-2003 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 5:54 AM


Re: Savings account
Nice Side stepping the issue Ragnerok.

I was asking, this simple question. If God is the standard of morality, how can he order rape and make it good?

Acording to him we have the same faculty for descerning good and evil, so why does all my sensibilities tell me baby killing is evil?

Also, I am getting sick and tired of all of you Christians totaly acting like you don't see anything even remotely indicative of rape whenever I bring these verses up.

CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?

IF NOT RAPE, WHY THE VIRGINS!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T SEE THIS, AND PRETENDING I AM SEEING WHAT I WANT, CUZ I'M NOT. SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-28-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 5:54 AM Ragnarok10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 3:30 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 186 by P e t e r, posted 01-14-2004 2:12 AM Yaro has responded

Ragnarok10
Member (Idle past 5713 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 43 of 213 (69722)
11-28-2003 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Yaro
11-28-2003 11:34 AM


Re: Savings account
Whoa... calm down. I'd really like to explain, then, it would be kinda pointless since you guys don't believe in God, right...? Besides, I think someone already said "how can we reject something if we don't already believe in Him?" As far as the effort goes, I think it'd be futile... I know you all agree with me whole heartedly on the inside.

Edit: Oh yes, and I may have side stepped the issue without knowing. I am sorry if you think that way. I did my best anyway.

[This message has been edited by Ragnarok10, 11-28-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Yaro, posted 11-28-2003 11:34 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Yaro, posted 11-29-2003 12:02 PM Ragnarok10 has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 44 of 213 (69869)
11-29-2003 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 3:30 PM


Re: Savings account
Whoa... calm down.

No problem , I was just trying to emphasize what I want answered. I have brought this issue up before, and it seems no one ever really adresses it. They speak in broad generalities, without once looking at the specific example I brought up.

I'd really like to explain, then, it would be kinda pointless since you guys don't believe in God, right...?

No, it would'nt be pointless. First, I never said I did or didn't belive in God. And that is not the issue, the issue is simply weather or not the God christians preach about is the same one as portraid in the bible.

It seems the examples above show God commanding some horrible things, rape, murder, infantaside. How could this be the all loving, all powerfull good, and how could he possibly be all good, if he does these bad things?

Now, the common answer has been, that God defines good. Yet, in genisis we are told that we have the same ability as him to know good from evil. So, I say we know good and evil, so I can rightly say killing babies and rapeing virgins is never a good thing.

So again, let me restate the question by quoting the above (excuse the caps please):

CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?

IF NOT RAPE, WHY THE VIRGINS!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T SEE THIS, AND PRETENDING I AM SEEING WHAT I WANT, CUZ I'M NOT. SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????

Can you, or ANYONE, answer the above? Please read the bible quotes I posted all the way at the top of this page so you know what I am refering to.

I would truely be thankfull, even for an answer I don't agree with. As long as it is sensible. My highest respects, I apologize for my frustration, I just want to make myself clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 3:30 PM Ragnarok10 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Yaro, posted 12-01-2003 12:50 AM Yaro has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 45 of 213 (70193)
12-01-2003 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Yaro
11-29-2003 12:02 PM


*bump*

I would really love it if someone could adress these specific bible stories and provide their opinion concerning their relationship with the issues above.

thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Yaro, posted 11-29-2003 12:02 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Rei, posted 12-01-2003 1:21 PM Yaro has responded

Rei
Member (Idle past 5302 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 46 of 213 (70297)
12-01-2003 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Yaro
12-01-2003 12:50 AM


*bump*

While I don't think Yaro's "drawing flies with vinegar" idea was the best, I would like to see this addressed also.

------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Yaro, posted 12-01-2003 12:50 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Yaro, posted 12-01-2003 7:50 PM Rei has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 47 of 213 (70377)
12-01-2003 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Rei
12-01-2003 1:21 PM


Heheh... I really didn't mean to have an outburst like that. I really apologize, it's just irritating since I have asked this before, and I never seem to get a straight answer.

I apologize to everyone, and I din't mean to put anyone off the discussion for it.

So as Rei said, anyone wanna have a stab at it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Rei, posted 12-01-2003 1:21 PM Rei has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-01-2003 10:08 PM Yaro has responded

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4527 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 48 of 213 (70455)
12-01-2003 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Yaro
12-01-2003 7:50 PM


... anyone wanna have a stab at it?

Perhaps, though the following is little more than informed speculation.

George E. Mendenhall, Frank Moore Cross, and others have emphasized the centrality of kinship rights and covenants among the proto-Israelites. In fact, the traditions reflected in Deuteronomy were comparatively egalitarian, with strict rules for dealing with kin, servant and slave. In a period of arranged marriages and a religious insistence on sexual purity (i.e., virginity), only the girl child, of young virgin, would be seen as appropriate for integration into proto-Israelite society. To the extent that this is true, the exception made for virgins reflects, not a society intent on rape, but a society intent on taking into itself only those who could be treated 'equitably', i.e., in accordance with the law.

Of course, all this talk of slaughtering the evil Midianites is little more than jingoistic propagande, but even propaganda must pay homage to the realities and constraints of the society in question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Yaro, posted 12-01-2003 7:50 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Yaro, posted 12-02-2003 8:27 PM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 49 of 213 (70648)
12-02-2003 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist
12-01-2003 10:08 PM


*bump*

Ok, this is my last bump. I promiss. I will consider this thread dead if no one else answers me on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-01-2003 10:08 PM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 50 of 213 (70649)
12-02-2003 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Yaro
11-25-2003 10:40 PM


I apologize for not responding, thank you for not quitting.
The real reason I quit this thread was because I will not agree that God condoned rape much less ordered it. We kind of went back and forth on it, we finally you "conceded" that the text "could imply" which softens your hardline stance that He outright ordered rape.

OK, Yaro with this now established I will say that it COULD be misconstrued that the passages you posted COULD imply that the order God gave COULD be misinterpreted that He was giving a green light to forced marriage.

In fact, the passages in question assume the virgins would welcome the option of life rather than die with the people God ordered to be killed.

The broader issue that is being smothered here is that we are judging an ancient era by the gauge of our standards in the 21st century.
Am I rationalizing rape ? No, rape is always evil in any era this is not a matter of opinion.

What I am saying is that the O.T. is misunderstood, the issue is what does it all mean ? Why did God, in His book record these things ?
IF the Bible is the word of God and that is the CLAIM, then WHY did God tell on Himself and allow such events to be recorded ? Of all the things that could of been told God deliberately recorded many things that many people hate Him for and thus reject Him they say "I would never worship a god like this"

Again I say WHY did God tell on Himself and record the horror of the O.T. which is very unflattering to Him ? God very well knows that the written word will be scrutinized by this modern intellectual generation and that things like the killing of children will make people reject Him , but He did it on purpose, He made sure what is written in the O.T. was preserved for everyone to know.

The answer to these questions can only be answered by a person who understands the message of the Bible, the entire Bible.

Yaro, are you familiar with the O.T. event where the prophet was insulted by a group of children and the horror that followed ?

Why don't you argue against the unfairness of happened and I will answer you , and then you will begin to understand WHY God told on Himself. What do you say ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Yaro, posted 11-25-2003 10:40 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Yaro, posted 12-03-2003 2:11 AM Cold Foreign Object has responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 51 of 213 (70650)
12-02-2003 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Yaro
11-25-2003 10:40 PM


Typo: should read "when finally......"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Yaro, posted 11-25-2003 10:40 PM Yaro has not yet responded

  
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