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Author | Topic: The evolution of size matters | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
It has to be heritable. How else could it evolve into the population at large?
Maybe it's heritability is half-ass, but you cannot explain the entire population evolving larger penises if the trait is not at least somewhat heritable.Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Maybe it's heritability is half-ass, but you cannot explain the entire population evolving larger penises if the trait is not at least somewhat heritable. That's exactly what I said, Jon. We don't know if penis size is heritable to the extent needed to justify much speculation. I don't think there is any problem believing that they evolved to be easily functional, but is there any evidence at all that 'attractive' size penises are inheritable, or even that the frequency of such penises has increased all in the last 50k years? How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
I don't think there is any problem believing that they evolved to be easily functional, It has nothing to do with ease of functionality. A small penis can release just as much sperm as a larger one.
How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet. Even accounting for these factors almost every male has a penis within the attractive range.
or even that the frequency of such penises has increased all in the last 50k years? Does it matter when the larger penis evolved? Half-ass heritability is still heritability. A slight preference is still a preference.Love your enemies!
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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If you look at the evolution of women's rights from 2000 yrs ago until today you can not deny that they have improved. Why wouldn't you assume that this trend would continue further back into eras of which we have no proof? Why would you assume this - this seems to betray a very poor understanding of the development of human society. Few things have changed in some straight line as you travel through time. The classic example is stature, which in industrialised societies is busy breaking new records. As you go back, people get shorter - until they stop getting shorter, since you realise their shortness was the result of the conditions of industrial society. And then you go back further, and suddenly realise that before the development of agriculture people were taller again. I think this is the point that Jon is getting at. Just because most historical socieities were more patriarchal than ours, we can't assume the same of pre-historical societies. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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NoNukes writes: How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet. Or due to swedish penis enlargers for that matter!
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It has nothing to do with ease of functionality. A small penis can release just as much sperm as a larger one. I think you are neglecting a bit of biology. There is more to making a baby than just releasing sperm. For example, merely applying sperm 'topically' lowers the chance for success.
Half-ass heritability is still heritability. A slight preference is still a preference. For some definition of half-assed, yes. I'm not arguing about preference. I'm assuming that larger is preferable to women than smaller. At least we have some evidence for that. What I'm casting doubt is whether larger than 'average' is inheritable. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
What I'm casting doubt is whether larger than 'average' is inheritable. It would had to have been for the average to increase over time.
For example, merely applying sperm 'topically' lowers the chance for success. And thank God for that! But I think you are overestimating just how large a penis needs to be to penetrate through the vagina and achieve insemination. Do you know the average length of a vagina?Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It would had to have been for the average to increase over time. We have insufficient information regarding increases in average size over time for humans. What do you think was the average length of a penis 50,000 years ago? Why do you think that? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
What do you think was the average length of a penis 50,000 years ago? Why do you think that? It doesn't matter. They were once smaller than they are now. Do you dispute this?Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
perhaps while penis size has increased, brain size has decreased...otherwise why are so many people obsessed with one organ and not the other?
This whole topic seems to be little more than an intellectual locker room comparison....
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Jon Inactive Member
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This whole topic seems to be little more than an intellectual locker room comparison.... Not at all. This is kind of a big thing. And we are just trying to understand the ins and outs of it. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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what precisely are we trying to understand? Biological reproduction probabilities?
seems the world has too many people already, and, if anything, we should be teaching people that the survival of the fittest is more about the brain than the penis. Just sayin....
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Jon Inactive Member |
what precisely are we trying to understand? We're trying to solve a riddle and learn a little more about our humanity. And despite what you think, we are using our brains to do itnot our penises... though we do it with those too.Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It doesn't matter. They were once smaller than they are now. Do you dispute this? My question doesn't matter, but yours is all important, eh? Your question, as I understand it is whether in the evolution from ape to man, the 'attractive penis' evolved prior to other (surely more important) characteristics that separate man from his non human ancestors 1,000,000 or so years ago. And that's based solely on knowing that other modern apes have unattractive (read as tiny) penises. Well it turns out that none of the apes leading up to modern man survives and we don't know the sizes of any of their willies. Boners are not actually skeletal. In short you are asking me whether the penises of homo something (not sure what, but something existing in the > 50,000 year ago range) are on average, longer than those of modern man. Well I owe you an answer other 'it does not matter', so my answer is I have no idea, and you don't either. And even if we did, we'd still not know whether the difference is genetically based. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
Let's phrase the question a different way:
Our species evolved to have relatively massive penises compared to our closest relatives. Why is that?
And even if we did, we'd still not know whether the difference is genetically based. Really? How can the difference not be genetically based? Almost all human males have penises within the 'attractive' range. Have we all just been so blessed to be randomly born with such fine-looking peckers, or do you think their presence is in our genes?
Your question, as I understand it is whether in the evolution from ape to man, the 'attractive penis' evolved prior to other (surely more important) characteristics that separate man from his non human ancestors 1,000,000 or so years ago. And that's based solely on knowing that other modern apes have unattractive (read as tiny) penises. That's not my question; I have placed no importance on when the 'attractive penis' evolved, especially in relation to other factors of mate selection. But the assumption that human penises evolved from smaller to larger certainly seems better than the alternative notion that human penises are as they have always been and that it is the penises of other primates that shrunk instead of ours getting bigger. JonLove your enemies!
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