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Author Topic:   The evolution of size matters
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 91 (696834)
04-18-2013 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
04-18-2013 11:38 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
It has to be heritable. How else could it evolve into the population at large?
Maybe it's heritability is half-ass, but you cannot explain the entire population evolving larger penises if the trait is not at least somewhat heritable.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2013 11:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:54 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 91 (696836)
04-19-2013 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jon
04-18-2013 11:53 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
Maybe it's heritability is half-ass, but you cannot explain the entire population evolving larger penises if the trait is not at least somewhat heritable.
That's exactly what I said, Jon. We don't know if penis size is heritable to the extent needed to justify much speculation. I don't think there is any problem believing that they evolved to be easily functional, but is there any evidence at all that 'attractive' size penises are inheritable, or even that the frequency of such penises has increased all in the last 50k years? How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jon, posted 04-18-2013 11:53 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 8:54 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 65 by 1.61803, posted 04-19-2013 9:56 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 91 (696855)
04-19-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 12:54 AM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
I don't think there is any problem believing that they evolved to be easily functional,
It has nothing to do with ease of functionality. A small penis can release just as much sperm as a larger one.
How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet.
Even accounting for these factors almost every male has a penis within the attractive range.
or even that the frequency of such penises has increased all in the last 50k years?
Does it matter when the larger penis evolved?
Half-ass heritability is still heritability. A slight preference is still a preference.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 11:08 AM Jon has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 64 of 91 (696860)
04-19-2013 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dogmafood
04-18-2013 10:59 PM


Re: it matters
If you look at the evolution of women's rights from 2000 yrs ago until today you can not deny that they have improved. Why wouldn't you assume that this trend would continue further back into eras of which we have no proof?
Why would you assume this - this seems to betray a very poor understanding of the development of human society. Few things have changed in some straight line as you travel through time. The classic example is stature, which in industrialised societies is busy breaking new records. As you go back, people get shorter - until they stop getting shorter, since you realise their shortness was the result of the conditions of industrial society. And then you go back further, and suddenly realise that before the development of agriculture people were taller again.
I think this is the point that Jon is getting at. Just because most historical socieities were more patriarchal than ours, we can't assume the same of pre-historical societies.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dogmafood, posted 04-18-2013 10:59 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Dogmafood, posted 04-20-2013 6:53 AM caffeine has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 65 of 91 (696862)
04-19-2013 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 12:54 AM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
NoNukes writes:
How much change is attributable to non-genetic factors like health and diet.
Or due to swedish penis enlargers for that matter!

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:54 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 04-19-2013 2:10 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 91 (696866)
04-19-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jon
04-19-2013 8:54 AM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
It has nothing to do with ease of functionality. A small penis can release just as much sperm as a larger one.
I think you are neglecting a bit of biology. There is more to making a baby than just releasing sperm. For example, merely applying sperm 'topically' lowers the chance for success.
Half-ass heritability is still heritability. A slight preference is still a preference.
For some definition of half-assed, yes.
I'm not arguing about preference. I'm assuming that larger is preferable to women than smaller. At least we have some evidence for that. What I'm casting doubt is whether larger than 'average' is inheritable.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 8:54 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 12:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 91 (696886)
04-19-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 11:08 AM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
What I'm casting doubt is whether larger than 'average' is inheritable.
It would had to have been for the average to increase over time.
For example, merely applying sperm 'topically' lowers the chance for success.
And thank God for that!
But I think you are overestimating just how large a penis needs to be to penetrate through the vagina and achieve insemination. Do you know the average length of a vagina?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 11:08 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 1:34 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 91 (696897)
04-19-2013 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jon
04-19-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
It would had to have been for the average to increase over time.
We have insufficient information regarding increases in average size over time for humans. What do you think was the average length of a penis 50,000 years ago? Why do you think that?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 12:50 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 1:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 91 (696902)
04-19-2013 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 1:34 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
What do you think was the average length of a penis 50,000 years ago? Why do you think that?
It doesn't matter. They were once smaller than they are now.
Do you dispute this?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 1:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 4:02 PM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 91 (696913)
04-19-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by 1.61803
04-19-2013 9:56 AM


Evolution of size of What matters?
perhaps while penis size has increased, brain size has decreased...otherwise why are so many people obsessed with one organ and not the other?
This whole topic seems to be little more than an intellectual locker room comparison....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by 1.61803, posted 04-19-2013 9:56 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 2:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 71 of 91 (696915)
04-19-2013 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
04-19-2013 2:10 PM


Re: Evolution of size of What matters?
This whole topic seems to be little more than an intellectual locker room comparison....
Not at all.
This is kind of a big thing. And we are just trying to understand the ins and outs of it.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 04-19-2013 2:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 04-19-2013 2:21 PM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 72 of 91 (696916)
04-19-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
04-19-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Evolution of size of What matters?
what precisely are we trying to understand? Biological reproduction probabilities?
seems the world has too many people already, and, if anything, we should be teaching people that the survival of the fittest is more about the brain than the penis. Just sayin....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 2:19 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 3:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 91 (696939)
04-19-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
04-19-2013 2:21 PM


Re: Evolution of size of What matters?
what precisely are we trying to understand?
We're trying to solve a riddle and learn a little more about our humanity.
And despite what you think, we are using our brains to do itnot our penises... though we do it with those too.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 04-19-2013 2:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 91 (696940)
04-19-2013 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jon
04-19-2013 1:45 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
It doesn't matter. They were once smaller than they are now.
Do you dispute this?
My question doesn't matter, but yours is all important, eh?
Your question, as I understand it is whether in the evolution from ape to man, the 'attractive penis' evolved prior to other (surely more important) characteristics that separate man from his non human ancestors 1,000,000 or so years ago. And that's based solely on knowing that other modern apes have unattractive (read as tiny) penises. Well it turns out that none of the apes leading up to modern man survives and we don't know the sizes of any of their willies. Boners are not actually skeletal.
In short you are asking me whether the penises of homo something (not sure what, but something existing in the > 50,000 year ago range) are on average, longer than those of modern man.
Well I owe you an answer other 'it does not matter', so my answer is I have no idea, and you don't either. And even if we did, we'd still not know whether the difference is genetically based.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 1:45 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Jon, posted 04-19-2013 5:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 91 (696952)
04-19-2013 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 4:02 PM


Re: Penile correlations and rape in the past
Let's phrase the question a different way:
Our species evolved to have relatively massive penises compared to our closest relatives.
Why is that?
And even if we did, we'd still not know whether the difference is genetically based.
Really? How can the difference not be genetically based? Almost all human males have penises within the 'attractive' range. Have we all just been so blessed to be randomly born with such fine-looking peckers, or do you think their presence is in our genes?
Your question, as I understand it is whether in the evolution from ape to man, the 'attractive penis' evolved prior to other (surely more important) characteristics that separate man from his non human ancestors 1,000,000 or so years ago. And that's based solely on knowing that other modern apes have unattractive (read as tiny) penises.
That's not my question; I have placed no importance on when the 'attractive penis' evolved, especially in relation to other factors of mate selection.
But the assumption that human penises evolved from smaller to larger certainly seems better than the alternative notion that human penises are as they have always been and that it is the penises of other primates that shrunk instead of ours getting bigger.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 4:02 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2013 10:10 AM Jon has replied

  
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