Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

I believe that you agreed that it would be wrong for us to commit genocide but you also agree that it is ok for God. Capital punishment is judgement, however it still requires somebody to carry it out, and even under judgement that act is going to harden the heart of the executioner and the God I worship is a god who wants to see our hearts softened.However we are covering the same ground over and over. I contend that we have to understand the Scriptures as a complete narrative, from creation to new creation. It is the story of God working through the hearts and minds of the humans He created. It includes history told from a specific point of view, there is poetry, beautiful allegories and so on, but it does all string together. In the scriptures we can see a multitude of different perspectives of different authors and we through it all we gain a picture of the nature of God, His desires for us and we get a broad idea of His long term plan for His creation. I think that when we try and understand the Bible as being inerrant we lose perspective on God and what He is doing. If however we understand it as a narrative of God working through imperfect humans we can gain the perspective that God wants us to have.Neither of us are ever going to have certainty. My starting point is the resurrection which leads me directly to the Gospels. I then go to the OT to understand the Gospel message as Jesus was Jew speaking to the Jews of the day in terms that were meaningful to them. I then look to the Epistles to understand what His followers understood of all that Jesus did and said. Their views would be important as they had access to people that been with Jesus and heard what He had to say which would encompass far more than what we have available today.My own imperfect understanding is based on the Jesus I see in the Gospels. I take on faith that the writers of the Gospel were not in error when they tell of Christ’s resurrection and I take on faith that their best efforts to record Christ’s message are very close to accurate in spite of there being minor inconsistencies in the accounts.As far as what happens at the end of time I’ll leave that up to God trusting in the fact that He is a God of mercy, love and justice and that those are the qualities that will be used when our hearts are judged. I trust in his justice to understand the heart of an infant who died before ever being able to make a moral decision - I trust in His justice to understand the heart of a murderer who had been brutally abused as a child — I trust in His justice to understand the heart of someone who was mentally ill and I trust in His justice to understand my heart even when my theology is off the mark.If God is a god as you understand Him who sanctions genocide and public stoning then to be very honest I’m fine with being judged on that basis as well. That isn’t where my heart is and as a result I'm be imaging Him properly so I guess I’ll be in trouble. But on the other hand I don’t want to spend eternity under the dictates of a that kind of god. I do however desire to spend eternity under the God we see who washed the feet of the disciples, and welcomed the outcasts to His table.

Here's one for you.Basic Christian Beliefs and Doctrines of ChristianityThere definition is:

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A Christian is a follower of Christ; one who professes belief in Jesus as the Christ and follows his teachings.

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That's fine, but you wanted a definition from a Christian source and the definition they give is

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A Christian is a follower of Christ; one who professes belief in Jesus as the Christ and follows his teachings.

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Obviously this includes many Christians who have huge doctrinal issues with you including Roman Catholics.

Which exactly makes their point about there being "no true Scotsman".Frankly, you believe OT inerrancy over the words of Jesus so it would be reasonable for someone to claim that you aren't a true Christian.

In other words the Bible doesn't mean what it says. So much for you believing in inerrancy. You feel completely free to involve context when it the inerrant reading disagrees with your pre-conceived decisions about the Bible but you reject the context when it doesn't conflict with your beliefs.In this case you use the context of Paul speaking to Timothy and so there are specific reasons for what he has written, even though the text doesn't actually say that. I contend that the story of the slaughter of the Canaanites was written in the context of the fact that the ancient Jews wanted them out of the way and wanted to justify their actions, and so claimed that God told them to do it.

We may have a slight disagreement over who has the strange views. But we come to our own conclusions about the context. You have decided that the context in which Paul talks about women is that because he was talking to Timothy it wouldn’t apply to you today even though if taken literally it would. In the case of the Canaanites, even though they had a self-serving interest to say that God commanded them to slaughter the Canaanites, they didn’t make it up, and the God who is all loving told them to kill every man woman and child, and yet you tell me that I have some strange ideas. Hmmmm.....

OK here is the quote in context.

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9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

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Paul goes back to Adam and Eve. He talks about women being saved by bearing children which isn't usually done in church in my experience. Now I don't think that God wants women to be always submissive to men either because I take this in the context of the entire Biblical narrative which progressively recognizes the role of women in all walks of life, because of Jesus' treatment of women and because of Paul's cultural background.There is no reason to conclude, and when you actually read the passage every reason not to conclude, that Paul just meant it in the context of church.However, once again you don't read the Bible as inerrant when it doesn't conform with your own views.

I'm going to re-post something I had in another thread which you chose not to reply to. It is an obvious example, (although I have a hunch you won't see it that way) of a contradiction in the ScripturesI have been working my way through the OT and came across this story of how Jehu slaughtered all of the descendants and followers of Ahab using deceit and treachery.
Here is the account from 2 Kings 10.

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1 Now Ahab had seventy sons in Samaria. And Jehu wrote letters and sent them to Samaria, to the rulers of Jezreel, the elders, and to the guardians of the children of Ahab, saying,
2"Now, when this letter comes to you, since your master's sons are with you, as well as the chariots and horses and a fortified city and the weapons,

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3select the best and fittest of your master's sons, and set him on his father's throne, and fight for your master's house."

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4 But they feared greatly and said, "Behold, the two kings did not stand before him; how then can we stand ?"

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5 And the one who was over the household, and he who was over the city, the elders, and the guardians of the children, sent word to Jehu, saying, "We are your servants, all that you say to us we will do, we will not make any man king ; do what is good in your sight."

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6 Then he wrote a letter to them a second time saying, "If you are on my side, and you will listen to my voice, take the heads of the men, your master's sons, and come to me at Jezreel tomorrow about this time." Now the king's sons, seventy persons, were with the great men of the city, who were rearing them.

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7 When the letter came to them, they took the king's sons and slaughtered them, seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent them to him at Jezreel.

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8 When the messenger came and told him, saying, "They have brought the heads of the king's sons," he said, "Put them in two heaps at the entrance of the gate until morning."

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9 Now in the morning he went out and stood and said to all the people, "You are innocent ; behold, I conspired against my master and killed him, but who killed all these ?

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10"Know then that there shall fall to the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spoke concerning the house of Ahab, for the LORD has done what He spoke through His servant Elijah."

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11 So Jehu killed all who remained of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, and all his great men and his acquaintances and his priests, until he left him without a survivor.

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12 Then he arose and departed and went to Samaria. On the way while he was at Beth-eked of the shepherds,

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13Jehu met the relatives of Ahaziah king of Judah and said, "Who are you?" And they answered, "We are the relatives of Ahaziah ; and we have come down to greet the sons of the king and the sons of the queen mother."

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14 He said, "Take them alive." So they took them alive and killed them at the pit of Beth-eked, forty-two men ; and he left none of them.

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15 Now when he had departed from there, he met Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him; and he greeted him and said to him, "Is your heart right, as my heart is with your heart ?" And Jehonadab answered, "It is." Jehu said, "If it is, give me your hand." And he gave him his hand, and he took him up to him into the chariot.

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16 He said, "Come with me and see my zeal for the LORD." So he made him ride in his chariot.

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17 When he came to Samaria, he killed all who remained to Ahab in Samaria, until he had destroyed him, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke to Elijah.
Jehu Destroys Baal Worshipers

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18 Then Jehu gathered all the people and said to them, "Ahab served Baal a little ; Jehu will serve him much.

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19"Now, summon all the prophets of Baal, all his worshipers and all his priests ; let no one be missing, for I have a great sacrifice for Baal ; whoever is missing shall not live." But Jehu did it in cunning, so that he might destroy the worshipers of Baal.

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20 And Jehu said, "Sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal." And they proclaimed it.

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21 Then Jehu sent throughout Israel and all the worshipers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left who did not come. And when they went into the house of Baal, the house of Baal was filled from one end to the other.

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22 He said to the one who was in charge of the wardrobe, "Bring out garments for all the worshipers of Baal." So he brought out garments for them.

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23Jehu went into the house of Baal with Jehonadab the son of Rechab ; and he said to the worshipers of Baal, "Search and see that there is here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal."

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24 Then they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had stationed for himself eighty men outside, and he had said, "The one who permits any of the men whom I bring into your hands to escape shall give up his life in exchange."

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25 Then it came about, as soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the royal officers, "Go in, kill them; let none come out." And they killed them with the edge of the sword ; and the guard and the royal officers threw them out, and went to the inner room of the house of Baal.

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26 They brought out the sacred pillars of the house of Baal and burned them.

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27 They also broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and broke down the house of Baal, and made it a latrine to this day.

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28 Thus Jehu eradicated Baal out of Israel.

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29However, as for the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel sin, from these Jehu did not depart, even the golden calves that were at Bethel and that were at Dan.

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When we get to the end we can see that Jehu destroyed all of the places of worship of Baal so if you like it can be argued that Yahweh felt it necessary. Indeed it goes on to say that:

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30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."

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So ostensibly here we have a case of Yahweh applauding a brutal treacherous slaughter as presumably the means must have justified the ends. Not exactly bed time reading for the little ones — is it?However when we read the book of Hosea chapter 1 we read the following.

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4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

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Yahweh was pleased with Jehu for what he did in 2nd Kings, he is now going to punish him for it in Hosea. This does strike me as more than a little odd and definitely un-God-like.It is clear that the scribe who wrote 2nd Kings had one political viewpoint and the writer of Hosea had another.

But you are reconciling the passages but adding something that the text doesn't say or imply and even explicitly contradicts, in order to twist its meaning in order to comply with your pre-determined point of viewThis again is from 2 Kings:

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30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."

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The passage claims that God is saying that what he had done was right in his eyes.Hosea then says:

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4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

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Hosea isn’t saying that the house of Jehu is being punished because of Jehu’s idolatry, he is saying it is because of the bloodshed of Jezreel. It is very specific and is in direct contradiction with the statement in 2 Kings. (Of course this isn’t even to mention that it is in complete contradiction to what Jesus taught.) Hosea even goes further in saying that because what Jehu had done in Jezreel that God will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. It is patently obvious that these 2 different writers have 2 different points of view. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion.

OK The problem is though that if you try and understand either hell or the trinity from Faith's perspective it all boils down to picking what appear to be relevant verses and then saying that there is your answer.It is my contention that the Bible is to be read as a narrative, (of course one which includes all sorts of narratives within the big story), and as a result you come at it from a very different angle. In my view one or two verses wouldn't be considered conclusive.It is like the discussion of Thomas saying saying My Lord and my God. By Faith's reading that would be conclusive. Jesus is God whereas I would understand Christ's deity by working through the Gospels and then referencing what Jesus said with the OT to sort out just what He meant. As a result both Faith and I see Jesus as God in some sense but we actually mean slightly different things by that.By the way, I realize that to a degree I am simplifying Faith's position but I contend that essentially it is correct.At any rate there really wasn't much further we could go with the discussion anyway.Thanks