|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 3841 days) Posts: 72 From: Los Angeles, California Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Perhaps I'll have to decide to stop posting on EvC or anywhere, stay home and just pray my heart out about all this stuff instead. But I still understand that Paul is talking about women in church, the reference to Adam and Eve is an explanation of why, this isn't church and I have no authority. The remark about childbearing seems to be some attempt to mollify the women.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I can, about the essentials of Christian belief, which all of them share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The steps are not out in the open.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nobody said Rand is an authority, but even to say what she said certainly implies that she had some knowledge about how the Catholic Church operates. You don't say such things otherwise.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Forming a one world religion is something the Popes have been working on for some time. And this new Pope is falling right in step with that aim:
Is Pope Francis Laying The Groundwork For A One World Religion? Does Pope Francis intend to help the global elite achieve their goal of uniting all of the religions of the world under a single banner? Will he be instrumental in establishing a single global religion for the glorious new age that the global elite believe is coming? After he was elected, the cover of Time Magazine declared Pope Francis to be the New World Pope, and since his election Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that he is going to make ecumenical outreach a top priority. He has spoken of his determination to continue on the path of ecumenical dialogue, and he has already held a number of very high profile ecumenical meetings. Not only has he worked hard to reach out to leaders from various Christian traditions, he has also made it a point to try to acknowledge the mutual bonds that he feels with all other religions. For example, in one recent address he made it a point to say that he believes that Muslims worship and pray to the one God that he also worships. This all roads lead to the same God philosophy is a hallmark of the one world religion that the global elite have been slowly building toward for decades. The global elite know that even with a one world economy and a one world government, humanity will never be truly united until there is a single global religion. Unfortunately, this one world religion that they are seeking to establish is diametrically opposed to the Christianity that we find in the Bible. By throwing out Biblical truth for the sake of friendship between men and women of different religious traditions, is Pope Francis fundamentally betraying the faith that he claims to represent? If there is going to be a one world religion, there will have to be a bond formed between Roman Catholicism and Islam. They are the two largest religious traditions on the planet, and so any truly global religion would definitely require the participation of both of them. That is one reason why what Pope Francis has already had to say about Islam is so noteworthy. The following comes from remarks that he made during his very first ecumenical meeting You can read the rest HERE. ============================================================================================== Edited by Faith, : correct grammar Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So, what are the essentials of Christian belief? Do they look anything like the Apostle's Creed? I believe I already said: Sola Scriptura, and salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Plus the Deity of Christ/Trinity and various other elements of various of the Creeds. I believe these things are shared by the churches I listed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It is clear that the scribe who wrote 2nd Kings had one political viewpoint and the writer of Hosea had another. Those who deny the inerrancy of the Bible of course won't persevere in trying to reconcile what seems to them to be an apparent contradiction, but that's what we have to do if we are going to understand the mind of God. Jehu did obey God in punishing the house of Ahab and the priests of Baal, but in his own life he also committed idolatry, showing that his obedience to God wasn't from right motives, and eventually his house came under God's judgment for that as well. God did reward him for his work as executioner: his sons reigned in Israel for 120 years, but then his own sins, which were also committed by his sons, came up for judgment. From Matthew Henry's Commentary on Hosea 1:4:
(2.) What is the ground of this controversy: I will revenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, the blood which Jehu shed at Jezreel, when by commission from God and in obedience to his command, he utterly destroyed the house of Ahab, and all that were in alliance with it, with all the worshippers of Baal. God approved of what he did (2 Ki. 10:30): Thou has done well in executing that which is right in my eyes; and yet here God will avenge that blood upon the house of Jehu, when the time has expired during which it was promised that his family should reign, even to the fourth generation. But how comes the same action to be both rewarded and punished? Very justly; the matter of it was good; it was the execution of a righteous sentence passed upon the house of Ahab, and, as such, it was rewarded; but Jehu did it not in a right manner; he aimed at his own advancement, not at the glory of God, and mingled his own resentments with the execution of God’s justice. He did it with a malice against the sinners, but not with any antipathy to the sin; for he kept up the worship of the golden calves, and took no heed to walk in the law of God, 2 Ki. 10:31. And therefore when the measure of the iniquity of his house was full, and God came to reckon with them, the first article in the account is (and, being first, it is put for all the rest) for the blood of the house of Ahab, here called the blood of Jezreel. Thus when the house of Baasha was rooted out it was because he did like the house of Jeroboam, and because he killed him, 1 Ki. 16:7. Note, Those that are entrusted with the administration of justice are concerned to see to it that they do it from a right principle and with a right intention, and that they do not themselves live in those sins which they punish in others, lest even their just executions should be reckoned for, another day, as little less than murders. And from Henry's Commentary on 2Kings 10:30:
1. God pronounced that to be right which he had done. It is justly questionable whether he did it from a good principle and whether he did not take some false steps in the doing of it; and yet (says God), Thou hast done well in executing that which is right in my eyes. The extirpating of idolaters and idolatry was a thing right in God’s eyes, for it is an iniquity he visits as surely and severely as any: it was according to all that was in his heart, all he desired, all he designed. Jehu went through with his work. 2. God promised him a reward, that his children of the fourth generation from him should sit upon the throne of Israel. This was more than what took place in any of the dignities or royal families of that kingdom; of the house of Ahab there were indeed four kings, Omri, Ahab, Ahaziah, and Joram, but the last two were brothers, so that it reached but to the third generation, and that whole family continued but about forty-five years in all, whereas Jehu’s continued in four, besides himself, and in all about 120 years. Note, No services done for God shall go unrewarded. II. Jehu’s carelessness in what he was further to do. By this it appeared that his heart was not right with God, that he was partial in his reformation. 1. He did not put away all the evil. He departed from the sins of Ahab, but not from the sins of Jeroboamdiscarded Baal, but adhered to the calves. The worship of Baal was indeed the greater evil, and more heinous in the sight of God, but the worship of the calves was a great evil, and true conversion is not only from gross sin, but from all sinnot only from false gods, but from false worships. The worship of Baal weakened and diminished Israel, and made them beholden to the Sidonians, and therefore he could easily part with that; but the worship of the calves was a politic idolatry, was begun and kept up for reasons of state, to prevent the return of the ten tribes to the house of David, and therefore Jehu clave to that. True conversion is not only from wasteful sins, but from gainful sinsnot only from those sins that are destructive to the secular interest, but from those that support and befriend it, in forsaking which is the great trial whether we can deny ourselves and trust God. 2. He put away evil, but he did not mind that which was good (v. 31): He took no heed to walk in the law of the Lord God of Israel. He abolished the worship of Baal, but did not keep up the worship of God, nor walk in his law. He had shown great care and zeal for the rooting out of a false religion; but in the true religion, (1.) He showed no care, took no heed, lived at large, was not at all solicitous to please God and to do his duty, took no heed to the scriptures, to the prophets, to his own conscience, but walked at all adventures... As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread. ============================================================================================= Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II. 2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
To you, maybe "sola scriptura" is an essential of Christianity. But to many people, such as Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalists, the essentials of Christianity would look like this: Ask any of them except the Catholics and the liberal versions of the other churches, and they will answer that I am right about Sola Scriptura and the other Solas. ABE: I chose the particular branches of some of the churches and not others because some have gone liberal. Presbyterian USA has gone liberal while Covenant Presbyterian and Presbyterian in America have remained orthodox; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is their liberal branch while Lutheran Missouri Synod has remained orthodox. I may have lost track of some of the changes in the denominations, the Great Apostasy is taking over at a gallop these days, but I'm sure those that have remained orthodox follow all the Solas, whichever those are that are still orthodox. As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The bloodshed becomes a sin when it is done with bad motives, and the motives are demonstrated by Jehu's being an idolater himself just as Ahab and clan were. And Jehu's idolatry IS shown in the history of the reign of his sons, it's not added to the text.
Being judged by God by a human instrument of God is also shown in other parts of scripture, such as when Assyria was God's instrument for the judgment of Israel. God says somewhere in Isaiah I think that He will judge Assyria in their own time because they delighted in destroying Israel. This demonstrates that motive matters. But of course Assyria wasn't commanded by God to judge Israel, as Jehu was, but the principle can be applied to Jehu as well once it is demonstrated that he too acted with wrong motives in being an idolater himself -- that is, not really objecting to the sins of Ahab but being willing to slaughter his family anyway, and there is a hint that he wanted the reward of getting his sons on the throne of Israel. His sons who then also committed idolatries and other sins. As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
|
Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.
I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
|
It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion. Maybe PD will contribute her answer to you, but mine is that the question is straightforward, are the Trinity and hell derived from the Bible or not? If we have to take into account all the ways the Bible can be understood and interpreted we'll be here forever.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Bible makes it quite clear that Jesus existed from at least the beginning of time (see John 1), but not in the flesh. Then the "Word was made flesh". So his existence is not coincident with his existence in the flesh. Between the crucifixion and the resurrection, he went on existing, as the Bible makes clear in 1 Peter 3:18: "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". He still existed for that period, but was not incarnate. There can be no doubt about that from the scriptures, and you are just messing around with words to obscure what is quite clear to anyone who can be bothered to read the Bible. Good points. Only John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus existed "from the beginning of time" -- although I know you said "at least" -- but "And the Word was God" makes Him God Himself, therefore uncreated, without beginning or end. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
We've got Jesus floating in the sky, seeing the Holy Spirit, and hearing the voice of the Father calling him his Son. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in the same place at the same time. Right, good point, but don't know where you're getting "Jesus floating in the sky." He merely "went up out of the water," walking on His two feet up onto the dry land I'd assume, when the Spirit descended and God the Father's voice from heaven was heard. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's not clear that the Bible authors had the same rather subtle concept of eternity that was developed by later theologians. I don't say they didn't, but I would be hard put to it to prove it from texts that I can recall right now. However, what we can take away from John 1 is that it definitely has Jesus existing though not being in the flesh. If he was alive before he was born in the flesh, there's no problem with him being dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, as 1 Peter says. Yes, you did prove that point, which was the point at issue of course, but the eternality of God can't be just a matter of some theological interpretations. Some of the Biblical references are more clear than others though: I think the Name God gives for Himself, I AM that I AM, in and of itself says He is eternal, without beginning or end. The Self-Existent One. He just IS, always has been:
Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Matthew Henry Commentary has:
1. A name that denotes what he is in himself (v. 14): I am that I am. This explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, (1.) That he is self-existent; he has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other: the greatest and best man in the world must say, By the grace of God I am what I am; but God says absolutelyand it is more than any creature, man or angel, can sayI am that I am. Being self-existent, he cannot but be self-sufficient, and therefore all-sufficient, and the inexhaustible fountain of being and bliss. (2.) That he is eternal and unchangeable, and always the same, yesterday, to-day, and for ever; he will be what he will be and what he is; see Rev. 1:8. (3.) That we cannot by searching find him out. This is such a name as checks all bold and curious enquiries concerning God, and in effect says, Ask not after my name, seeing it is secret, Jdg. 13:18; Prov. 30:4. Do we ask what is God? Let it suffice us to know that he is what he is, what he ever was, and ever will be. Then there are all the claims to be the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, particularly in Revelation:
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. To BE the beginning and the end suggests eternality, but if that isn't sufficient there is also:
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. And then there is the passage about the priest Melchizedek, who is this mysterious figure who blessed Abraham, who may be a theophany of Christ, although there are other ideas about that, but in that case he couldn't be eternal because only God is eternal. But the passage does describe him as having neither beginning nor end:
Hbr 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. And the words "eternal" and "everlasting" do appear in the KJV, although the underlying Hebrew has variable meanings:
Deu 33:27 The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: For "everlasting" Strong's Concordance does include the meaning of "continuous existence" or "perpetual" and "eternity" but in terms of the future, not the past for some reason.
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world a) ancient time, long time (of past) b) (of future)1) for ever, always 2) continuous existence, perpetual 3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II. 2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Doesn't "without beginning or end" suggest something outside of time altogether? That is, what Augustine had in mind: time as created, God being outside it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024