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Author Topic:   Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 385 (695623)
04-08-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 12:59 AM


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire?
No, the concepts of both the trinity and of hellfire, are extra-biblical.
2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible?
I suppose they came up with the concepts first.
3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?
They're not Bible teachings.
4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?
I suppose that IS when they became Christian teachings.
5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'd bet that any contradiction you're imagining can be solved by Jesus using some sort of godly powers.
6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?
Words have multiple meanings.
7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?
If it does, I doubt it teaches it that specifically and explicitly.
8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible?
Not that I'm aware of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 12:59 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 04-08-2013 5:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 385 (695685)
04-08-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
04-08-2013 5:16 PM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Throw me a bone here, Phat...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 04-08-2013 5:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 104 of 385 (696142)
04-12-2013 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
04-11-2013 5:31 PM


Re: Jesus Is YHWH?
Hi PD,
I don't think we're gonna make any sense out of the concept of the trinity, its a mystery and it doesn't really make much sense as a concept. I think Mitch Hedberg's joke is apt::
quote:
I have a 2-in-1 shampoo, but 2-in-1 is a bullshit term, because 1 is not big enough to hold 2. That's why 2 was created. If it was 2-in-1, it would be overflowing. The bottle would be all sticky.
I don't see that calling Jesus Lord, means he is YHWH simply because the passages referenced from the OT say Lord.
I don't think it makes sense to say that "Jesus *is* YHWH". I thought they were supposed to be seperate persons. First off, obviously they have different names, so there not the same thing. Also, Jesus said to pray to "Our Father", and that seems to distinguish them. But the concept of the trinity is that they are still both God, even though they're not the same thing.
So I think you're right that we shouldn't say that Jesus was YHWH, but I don't think that ruins the trinity. It doesn't really make sense, but there you have it.
I took a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia, and they seem to kinda dodge the issue.
Basically Jesus is considered Divine but he doesn't have to be equated with YHWH.
quote:
The Divinity of Jesus is proved by some writers by an appeal to prophecy and miracle. But, though Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament to the letter, He Himself appears to appeal to them mainly in proof of His Divine mission; He shows the Jews that He fulfills in His Person and His work all that had been foretold of the Messias. The prophecies uttered by Jesus Himself differ from the predictions of the Old Testament in that Jesus does not speak in the name of the Lord, like the seers of old, but in His own name. If it could be strictly proved that they were made in virtue of His own knowledge of the future, and of His own power to dispose of the current of events, the prophecies would prove His Divinity; as it is they prove at least that Jesus is a messenger of God, a friend of God, inspired by God. This is not the place to discuss the historical and philosophical truth of the miracles of Jesus, but we know that Jesus appeals to His works as bearing witness to the general truth of His mission (John 10:25, 33, 38), and also for the verity of some particular claims (Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10-11; etc.) They show, therefore, at least that Jesus is a Divine legate and that His teaching is infallibly true.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Character of Jesus Christ
There's more to read near the bottom under "The Divinity of Jesus" if you care to.
They conclude with:
quote:
But if the Divine Sonship of Christ is a mere intellectual relation, and if Christ is God in a most figurative sense, the Paternity of the Father and the Divinity of the Son will be reduced to a figure of speech.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : typo

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 04-12-2013 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 04-12-2013 7:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 04-13-2013 6:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 385 (696398)
04-15-2013 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Alter2Ego
04-13-2013 3:33 PM


Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
Jesus' death interferes with the trinity dogma which says Jesus is eternal.
...
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL":
"Eternal means not having a beginning or an end."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal
I think you're missing the obvious:
Jesus' death wasn't his end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-13-2013 3:33 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-17-2013 1:04 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 385 (696399)
04-15-2013 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by purpledawn
04-13-2013 6:47 AM


Re: Jesus Is YHWH?
Well, once again you answer my post with great detail and I'm left without much to offer for contribution.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by purpledawn, posted 04-13-2013 6:47 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 04-15-2013 7:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 385 (696411)
04-15-2013 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
04-15-2013 7:41 PM


Re: Jesus Is YHWH?
Hey CS, I thought Catholicism taught the Trinity too. Did that change?
Why do you ask?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 04-15-2013 7:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 04-16-2013 1:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 385 (696460)
04-16-2013 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
04-16-2013 1:36 AM


Re: Jesus Is YHWH?
What makes it seem like I object to the Trinity idea?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 04-16-2013 1:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 385 (696598)
04-17-2013 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Alter2Ego
04-17-2013 1:04 AM


Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
However, the fact that Jesus Christ did indeed die disqualifies him from being eternal.
That's not true. Your definition of eternal is not having an end. You are equating death to an end, but in Jesus' case his death was not an end. Therefore, that he died does not disqualify him from being eternal.
During the three days of Jesus Christ's death, are you saying he was actually still in existence as a living being?
It seems contradictory to say that someone who is dead is "living", but that's how the Bible goes about it, though it makes a distinction between the body and Spirit:
Take a look at 1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV)
quote:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits
Either way, if he was making proclamations while he was dead then he certainly had not ended and thus he is not disqualified from being eternal.
That same verse is also used as Biblical support for hell. What do you think the "imprisoned spirits" is referring to?
Regardless, I don't have a problem with the Trinity and Hellfire coming from outside the Bible. Sola Scriptura is one of the biggest mistakes in Christianity anyways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-17-2013 1:04 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2013 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 385 (696609)
04-17-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by NoNukes
04-17-2013 10:40 AM


Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
While rereading the chapter to find out more about what it says about this "Hell", I noticed another part that I think is worth quoting in this thread:
quote:
1 Peter 3:
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Haven't been seeing a lot of that here from the True Christians
Yes, but what kind of 'Hell' does this verse describe.
Here's what we've got:
quote:
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
So its a prison, and those who are there were disobedient before the Flood. So not much.
It's a place that would have been the abode of the spirits of Abraham, Moses, and David. Of all of the righteous men of the Old Testament, only Elijah is said to have escaped going there.
I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2013 10:40 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 385 (696830)
04-18-2013 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Alter2Ego
04-18-2013 10:49 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
You have been told several times that an eternal person cannot die aka their life cannot end.
And you've ignored my explanation that Jesus did not end when he died.
During the three days that the Bible says Jesus was dead, are you saying he was actually still in existence as a living being aka the Bible is lying?
How could Jesus have made proclamations to the imprisoned spirits if he didn't exist?
So I say again, an eternal person cannot die and therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ died is evidence that he was not eternal from the get-go.
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You haven't addressed my arguments that proves you wrong, you just say it again as if you're ignoring me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-18-2013 10:49 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 324 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-21-2013 8:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 327 of 385 (697181)
04-22-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Alter2Ego
04-21-2013 8:17 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
From Message 323:
quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
You have been told several times that an eternal person cannot die aka their life cannot end.
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
And you've ignored my explanation that Jesus did not end when he died.
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
So I say again, an eternal person cannot die and therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ died is evidence that he was not eternal from the get-go.
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You haven't addressed my arguments that proves you wrong, you just say it again as if you're ignoring me.
ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
That's exactly why I ignored your previous explanation, because it defies logic.
You can't just say "that defies logic". You have to actually explain how it defies logic. Kinda like how I explained why your post was illogical when I refuted it earlier. I'll say it again:
This whole argument rests on you defining "death" to be equivalent to an "end", but in the case of the story of Jesus in the Bible, his death was not his end so your argument fails. You have never addressed this refutation.
Simply avoiding it by just going "oh, that's illogical" is a failure on your part.
QUESTION #2 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: Is death the opposite of life? YES or NO?
Typically yes, but in the Bible, no. Jesus' body died but his Spirit lived on.
From Message 324:
quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
During the three days that the Bible says Jesus was dead, are you saying he was actually still in existence as a living being aka the Bible is lying?
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
How could Jesus have made proclamations to the imprisoned spirits if he didn't exist?
QUESTION #3 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
So you're telling me that the Bible was lying when it said Jesus died? TRUE or FALSE?
False. In fact, your position is the one that makes the Bible out to be lying.
FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations.
There's all kinds of inferences that can be made from the Bible that are not explicitly stated. We don't need to find passages that state things exactly in order to understand them as we've phrased them.
The verse of scripture you previously posted during your fallacious claim that Jesus was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits is not saying that at all. I ignored you the first time when you posted it, because I figured you were not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, or chapters). But since you insist that I respond (because you are complaining that I am ignoring you), I will respond for the time being. If you post the verse again, be prepared to be shown the context this time around.
The verse is still sitting there in my post waiting to be commented on. Anybody can pull up the whole chapter if they want, there's no reason for me to post it in its entirety here. We can reasonably infer what must have happened for the verses to be true without explicit passages that go into detail. You have not explained why the claim that he was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits was fallacious, you've simply asserted it without argument. I can reject that just as easily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-21-2013 8:17 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 2:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 332 of 385 (697518)
04-26-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Dr Adequate
04-26-2013 1:01 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
There's also the "don't touch me" part after Jesus' burial. He was around the tomb and Mary Magdalene eventually recognized Jesus but he told her not to touch him yet because apparently he was still in some sort of transitional stage, or something.
The line is in John 20:17.
quote:
From John 20 (NIV)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13 They asked her, Woman, why are you crying? They have taken my Lord away, she said, and I don’t know where they have put him.
14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for? Thinking he was the gardener, she said, Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.
16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, Rabboni! (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’
18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: I have seen the Lord! And she told them that he had said these things to her.
So Jesus had died, and he hadn't ascended to his Father yet, yet he was recognizable as Jesus so therefore he had to exist in some sort of state while he was dead. Ergo, he hadn't ended and can still be considered eternal.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2013 1:01 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 333 of 385 (697526)
04-26-2013 3:56 PM


Trinity implied in Matthew
Matt 3: 16-17 (NIV):
quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
We've got Jesus floating in the sky, seeing the Holy Spirit, and hearing the voice of the Father calling him his Son.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in the same place at the same time.

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 351 of 385 (697721)
04-29-2013 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Alter2Ego
04-27-2013 2:39 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
Since the verse is "still sitting there" in your previous post, you should have no trouble quoting it again, and this time, bolding the words that indicate: "Jesus was alive in the spirit and preaching to imprisoned spirits during the three days the Bible says he was dead."
When do you intend to do that?
I don't ever intend to do that. It is unimportant to my argument. I've already refuted your position and you have refused to address it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 2:39 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 352 of 385 (697722)
04-29-2013 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Alter2Ego
04-28-2013 1:56 PM


By definition, an eternal LIVING BEING cannot have a beginning or an end and must exist through all time as a LIVING BEING.
False. An eternal being could become a living being, and then stop being a living one and go back to what it was before. At no point did it have a beginning or an end of its existence, even though its time as a living being had both a beginning or an end.
Jesus did not exist as a LIVING BEING for three days. Therefore, he did not exist as a LIVING BEING "through all time."
The Bible distinguishes between being alive in the body, and being alive in the spirit. Jesus was always alive in the spirit, then he became alive in the body, then his body died, and he continued to live in spirit. Even though his body had a beginning and end, his spirit did not. Therefore, the end of his body's life doesn't make him not eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-28-2013 1:56 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-30-2013 2:09 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 355 by Faith, posted 04-30-2013 2:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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