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Author Topic:   Can science say anything about a Creator God?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 506 (696835)
04-18-2013 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Just being real
04-18-2013 9:47 PM


You asked from proof of that statement. I pointed to all quantum fluctuation experiments ever conducted as that proof Jon. I can say that because they all occured within our current space time universe.
If you accept that reasoning, then why not this identical reasoning?
Every observed effect ever encountered has been the result of a natural cause. No one has ever traced any effect to a non-natural cause. The universe is a caused effect. Thus the universe resulted from a natural cause.
What you are ignoring is that quantum fluctuations are predicted by a theory that suggests that quantum fluctuations do exist in a vacuum of nothing. We have no reason to believe that theory is incorrect, because the theory has passed every verification. In fact, even the term 'universe parameters' is total BS faux science. It has no meaning whatsoever. Why don't you name a 'universe parameter' that you feel is required for quantum fluctuations to exist.
What you are saying, in effect, is that you'll never accept indirect evidence for a natural cause of the universe. That's not the same as no evidence, but it's good enough for you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Just being real, posted 04-18-2013 9:47 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 506 (696877)
04-19-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


left open tag which apparently deletes text
Edited by NoNukes, : bad dupe removed

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 398 of 506 (696878)
04-19-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


We have never observed air either. It is invisible to our eyes. But we sure have observed its effects.
So then the fact that we don't see quantum fluctuations is of no consequence. And neither is the fact that we cannot see beyond our own universe.
And I think that these effects are clearly and scientifically detectable. All one needs do is look for specified information where the only possible ramification is that it was formed by a supremely intelligent being
And backing up that 'I think' with some evidence or logical argument is the point of the thread.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 3:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 399 of 506 (696879)
04-19-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Is the computer in front of you a natural cause? Or is it an intelligent cause? What about a bird's nest? Natural or intelligent?
I suppose I did leave this opening.
The computer in front of me is of natural origins versus super natural origins.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 3:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 400 of 506 (696881)
04-19-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Is the computer in front of you a natural cause? Or is it an intelligent cause? What about a bird's nest? Natural or intelligent?
I suppose I did leave this opening.
The computer in front of me is of natural origins versus super natural origins. It was not produced by a Creator God, said origin being the subject of this thread.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 403 of 506 (696887)
04-19-2013 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Straggler
04-19-2013 12:17 PM


Re: Predictions
What has your "goddidit" hypothesis ever led to the discovery of?
If I understand designtheorist's intent for these threads, his plan was to show us that RTB made better predictions of future discoveries than did naturalistic creation theories.
But he has not managed to get around to that yet. And predictions of future science is not the same thing as actually finding future science anyway.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 12:17 PM Straggler has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 424 of 506 (697022)
04-20-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Percy
04-20-2013 7:20 AM


Green doing an illusion.
quote:
The perplexing thing is that no one has discovered any such law. What's more, the laws of physics that have been articulated from Newton through Maxwell and Einstein, and up to until today, show a complete symmetry between past and future. Nowhere in any of these laws do we find a stipulation that they apply one way in time but not the other.
quote:
The known laws of physics actually declare-contrary to our lifetime of experiences - that light coffee can separate into black coffee and white cream
Percy writes:
Greene raises this point so he can later explain why it *isn't* possible to go either direction in time.
It turns out that Percy is correct, but it is also the case that even a careful reading of the quoted paragraph seems to foreclose the possibility of any laws of physics disallowing a reversal of time. "[T]he laws of physics ...from Newton through Maxwell and Einstein, and up to until today" seems like a comprehensive state of all of physics. So where is the hole?
There is no $#%& hole. Greene's explanation is a convincing, entertaining and useful tale of probability, thermodynamics, and other concepts put together to explain entropy. In fact, I think pages 155 and forward include one of the best explanations of entropy I have seen in a popular science book. But Greene's use of the term "second law of thermodynamics" gives the deceit away. How is that not part of physics between Newton and now?
Obviously it is. The modern treatment of entropy is early 19th century physics. Can we simply call thermodynamics chemistry and math rather than physics? Grrr...
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 04-20-2013 7:20 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Son Goku, posted 04-21-2013 7:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 438 of 506 (697051)
04-20-2013 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Just being real
04-20-2013 3:38 PM


I’m going to assume that your answer would be yes, having the scientific mind that you do. So this demonstrates at least two different sciences we can look to that are searching for intelligence from non-human life forms.
I understand that you are describing a SETI type investigation. None of the signals you describe would indicate intelligence to me, but perhaps if you were also to add some modulation that might distinguish the signal from naturally occurring phenomena, then maybe you'd be on to something. Something ordinary but not Creator good level super ordinary. And that's the topic of the thread. Simply finding intelligence outside the galaxy would be exciting.
There are three things that are required to be present at one time. There must of course be the transmission of information (transmitter), there must be the independent reception of the information (receiver), and thirdly the observer must be able to make the connection that the information used by the receiver is completely independent of the transmitter and that only that information arranged in that order will initiate the response.
The above however is just the same CSI ID nonsense I've seen pushed a dozen times. It does not extend from SETI. I don't need to identify an intended receiver to recognize that I have no natural explanation for a signal bearing, say a long repeated sequence of prime numbers in descending order. If a signal like that shows up, then the source is worth investigating further.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 3:38 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Just being real, posted 04-21-2013 2:13 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 446 by Percy, posted 04-21-2013 3:30 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 442 of 506 (697094)
04-21-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by Son Goku
04-21-2013 7:21 AM


Re: Green doing an illusion.
Now take the extreme of the Sun. Try to reverse time there, it would be almost impossible to know which random atoms in the Sun should unmelt and reform into a comet that hit the Sun in the Devonian period. You'd need atomic level detail of the entire Sun! Again compare this with the forward time evolution, you start with a comet pointed at the Sun, it's easy to guess what will happen.
This is pretty much the same explanation Greene uses. Just as well done, in fact. Surely there's a book in you somewhere?
The only reason this could work as a way to tell the directions apart, is if one end of time was in a highly non-generic state, you could then label that "the beginning" and define forward as the direction where generic-ness increases. There is no explanation for why this is true. Why was the Big Bang so non-generic (low entropy)?
But it isn't just the Big Bang that allows us to tell the direction of time. Every time we drop an egg, open a bottle of soda, or kick dust on other runners on a track field, we find the same direction for the arrow of time. Perhaps I'm quibbling over the definition for fundamental, but entropy sure seems universal.
Second law of Thermodynamics not one of the laws of physics? In a sense? Still seems like cheating to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Son Goku, posted 04-21-2013 7:21 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Son Goku, posted 04-21-2013 4:03 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 448 of 506 (697119)
04-21-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Just being real
04-21-2013 2:13 PM


Because only insane people would go to the trouble to transmit a signal with absolutely no intended receiver.
The signals need not be transmitted for the purpose of reception. They might be a bi-product of some energy use.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Just being real, posted 04-21-2013 2:13 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 10:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 456 of 506 (697180)
04-22-2013 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by Just being real
04-22-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Questions (again).
I will direct them towards you since he seems to have wimped out.
What on earth is the basis of this comment? Have I been too slow in responding to some of your messages? Did I not stay up late enough last night typing posts?
Have you been able to show specified information that could only come from God? Have you responded to my question of why arguments of exactly the same form as your argument that we've only seen Quantum fluctuations inside a universe are not also correct? Have you forgotten that the current discussion regarding quantum fluctuations addresses only one of the two complaints I leveled at designtheorist when you stepped in to defend his nonsense?
I acknowledge that I don't respond to everything you might post, but compared to your own cherry picking, I believe I've done alright.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 10:49 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 9:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 457 of 506 (697184)
04-22-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Just being real
04-22-2013 10:56 AM


Yes and the detection of such a signal would still have a transmitted, receptor, observer relationship. Else we would not be recognizing it.
Using that definition, isn't the receiver pretty much of no function at all? I understand that ID proponents need a receiver to advance their theory that they can observe design, but in reality, even a laser beam intended for no use other than to destroy a target, if received by us would constitute a signal of the type you want to say is intelligence. Yet the object having a receiver in the relationship is an inanimate object not intended to respond other than by blowing up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 10:56 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 467 of 506 (697272)
04-22-2013 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Just being real
04-22-2013 9:31 PM


Re: Questions (again).
I understand that you don't want to answer me with a straight answer, and I understand why.
What you call a 'straight answer' apparently means only an answer agreeing with you. I've been pretty direct with my answers to your questions. You've avoided about half of my questions. I note that this avoidance includes responding to the questions I re-asked in the post you are supposedly responding to.
And the target is the receiver.
Everything is a potential laser target. A laser is merely a vehicle for delivering energy to destroy a target. Such a bean contains no information, specified or otherwise, and communicates nothing to the target. Yet because it is a narrow bandwidth transmission, we might infer something from the beam that is not an intended message to the target.
The target then in this case has no value. It is insisted upon solely for the reason of being able to distinguish between information that naturally occurs, such as crystals and snowflakes.
Normally I here the objection that looking for non-human intelligence is not a scientific en devour.
Did I raise such an objection? Did anyone do so in this thead?
but looking for specified information in the laws of physics
You haven't come anywhere close to suggesting how to do this, and you have not even made an argument that it is plausible to do this.
Where people balk is when attempts are made to simply say either that order means design or that it is possible to recognize design simply by looking at it, just as you do when looking at a wrench.
Then there must be an intended reason for the object, bandwidth, or sound (receiver). And finally there must be someone to make the connection that the object, bandwidth, or sound was meant for that reason (observer). Without these three ingredients, specificity can exist, but it can not be detected.
And I've provided an example that suggests that those three things are not always needed. The observer can be completely clueless about the reason or intended purpose of the transmission or the nature of the receiver. In response you've simply said that such a transmission would be irrational, so I provided you with a rationale which you have yet to address.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 9:31 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Just being real, posted 04-23-2013 3:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 469 of 506 (697297)
04-23-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Just being real
04-22-2013 9:45 PM


Re: Questions (again).
Likewise, show me a bacteria form from completely from non biological matter that can send these signals and I'll really be impressed. Otherwise all your example has done was further underscore my point.
I agree with bluegenes. This is a clear case of assuming your conclusion. 'Biological' matter is by definition the material of which living things are composed. Yet you have categorically assumed that examples of this type must be programmed/designed.
ABE:
I thought it might be helpful to expand on my position just a bit.
Biological systems are different from non biological systems in that they reproduce themselves imperfectly, without any intervention. Accordingly, unlike wrenches, biological systems are subject to evolving through unguided introductions of variety and natural selection. I am not aware of any reason why "information" and "function" developed in such a system would be distinguishable from design. Further, unlike the case for human artifacts, nobody knows what would constitute 'tool marks' on a biological system. Perhaps there aren't any.
We have no way to calibrate our examination of complex specified information to make such a distinction because we have no instances biological organisms that are we agree are designed. You (JBR) attempt to overcome this limitation by fiat... that is by insisting that undesigned biological systems must look like undesigned inorganic systems, except for crystals, snowflakes, and other observed examples of naturally occuring order.
Edited by NoNukes, : Add some ABE

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Just being real, posted 04-22-2013 9:45 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Just being real, posted 04-23-2013 5:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 476 of 506 (697337)
04-23-2013 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Just being real
04-23-2013 5:24 PM


Re: Questions (again).
Without actually having ever seen at least one example of a multi-celled biological system have new never before existed information get added to its chromosomal DNA and improve that system (something we would need to see at least once to infer universal common decent) there's no solid basis for that conclusion.
First, we do have indirect evidence that multi-celled biological systems have evolved. I understand that the evidence does not convince you, but it is there. Evidence is not limited to my or your directly watching organisms evolve. Second, we have absolutely no evidence, direct or indirect, that any biological system has been designed by humans or non-humans. None at all. We only have evidence of humans designing non biological systems. You are using an analogy rather than evidence. And my position is that the presence of an alternate, evidenced alternative breaks the analogy.
So it is you who are making an unevidenced leap, and not I.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Just being real, posted 04-23-2013 5:24 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Just being real, posted 04-25-2013 6:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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