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Author Topic:   Can science say anything about a Creator God?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 480 of 506 (697349)
04-24-2013 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by GDR
04-23-2013 1:57 PM


Am I a god? Technology Dependent Theological Relatavism
Straggler writes:
The distinction I am making is between a being that is bound by the natural laws of the physical universe in which it exists and a being that is unbounded by any such natural laws. A being that is bound by the natural laws of the universe in which it resides is no more supernatural or godly than you or I. It might be more technologically advanced. But it isn't 'supernatural' and it isn't 'god' if it is constrained by natural laws is it?
GDR writes:
I fundamentally disagree. If an intelligence is capable of bringing into existence our universe with the laws that apply to it, then frankly I don’t care if this intelligence is constrained by the laws of that universe or not.
You, and the intelligence in question, would however be left wondering why the natural laws in that original universe are as they are. Your 'god' would himself be left wondering why there is something rather than nothing. Left wondering "Why am I here..."
GDR writes:
From our reference point as it is outside the laws of our universe it is supernatural. Also, if this intelligence is responsible for this universe and we live because of him/her/it then that is god-like enough for me...
The link I provided previously outlines how humans could theoretically harness the natural laws of our universe to create new universes, design life and suchlike. If you (or I) were in possession of such technologies and able to use them would we qualify as supernatural gods?
Personally I know that no matter what gizmos I am armed with, and no matter how godly I may seem to anyone/anything else, I will never actually be a god.
GDR writes:
From our reference point....
If godliness is just a matter of reference point then you or I armed with a Tazer, a packet or Oreos and a mobile phone could qualify as gods to a primitive tribe that had never had any contact with the modern world.
But - Again - I am no god and no amount of gizmology will ever change that.
GDR writes:
...which as far as I’m concerned answers your question which was Why is it meaningless?.
I think your "reference point" dependent notion of godliness is pretty meaningless. What does or does not qualify as a god at any given time requires a sort of technology dependent theological relativism.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by GDR, posted 04-23-2013 1:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by GDR, posted 04-24-2013 11:25 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 481 of 506 (697350)
04-24-2013 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by GDR
04-23-2013 1:57 PM


Re: ScienceFictionology
GDR writes:
From our reference point as it is outside the laws of our universe it is supernatural.
But when physicists suggest the existence of other universes that have different physical properties and laws than our own universe, as derived from string theory, they aren't postulating supernatural realms are they?
Is string theory a supernatural theory as far as you are concerned?
AbE - See new thread Is String Theory Supernatural?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by GDR, posted 04-23-2013 1:57 PM GDR has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 489 of 506 (697413)
04-25-2013 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by GDR
04-24-2013 11:25 AM


Re: Am I a god? Technology Dependent Theological Relatavism
Straggler writes:
You, and the intelligence in question, would however be left wondering why the natural laws in that original universe are as they are. Your 'god' would himself be left wondering why there is something rather than nothing. Left wondering "Why am I here..."
GDR writes:
I’m not trying to pretend that this is anything but highly speculative but it seems conceivable to me that an existence with higher dimensions might comprehend things much differently than we do.
How could a higher number of physical dimensions conceivably assist with questions of purpose?
Straggler writes:
The link I provided previously outlines how humans could theoretically harness the natural laws of our universe to create new universes, design life and suchlike. If you (or I) were in possession of such technologies and able to use them would we qualify as supernatural gods?
Personally I know that no matter what gizmos I am armed with, and no matter how godly I may seem to anyone/anything else, I will never actually be a god.
GDR writes:
If we could actually do that, I suppose that from the perspective of the life in the new universes we would. It’s all relative.
Then you and I have a very different notion of what we mean by 'god'. I didn't think we were talking about theological relatavism based on technological ability.
GDR writes:
However, would it really matter to this new life whether you considered yourself a god or not. It’s a bit like our relationship with our pets.
I would consider it a matter of honesty. If the intelligent beings in the universe I had created with my 'design a universe zPod app' came to me and asked if I was a god worthy of worship etc. I would be compelled to inform them that all I did was follow the 'design-a-universe' wizard and then press the big red 'create now' button.
I would tell them I am not a god and that they shouldn't waste their time worshiping me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by GDR, posted 04-24-2013 11:25 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by GDR, posted 04-25-2013 10:54 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 500 of 506 (697488)
04-26-2013 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by GDR
04-25-2013 10:54 AM


Re: Am I a god? Technology Dependent Theological Relatavism
GDR writes:
The question was about a first cause.
Not really. Here it is again:
quote:
You, and the intelligence in question, would however be left wondering why the natural laws in that original universe are as they are. Your 'god' would himself be left wondering why there is something rather than nothing. Left wondering "Why am I here..."
But - On the subject of first causes - If the universe in which your god resides exists in the multiverse - Who/what created the multiverse.....?
GDR writes:
I was simply pointing out that from the perspective of a created being with intelligence it would be reasonable to assume that this being would consider their creator a god.
Why? If I was designed by human scientists I wouldn'r consider them gods. So if I was ultimately designed by aliens in a parallel universe why would I consider them gods either?
GDR writes:
It seems to me that there is an underlying understanding in your point that assumes that worship is about the ego of the creator.
I think issues of humbleness or ego are irrelevant. I'm simply saying that if anything or anyone has concluded that I am either supernatural or a god (or both) - They are wrong. I'm neither. No matter what technology I have. No matter what I create.
GDR writes:
Maybe in the world you create they would worship you as Straggler, and have great debates about your nature.
They might then tell tales of GDR who refused to listen to the infallible divine wisdom of the mighty Straggles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by GDR, posted 04-25-2013 10:54 AM GDR has not replied

  
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