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Author | Topic: Increases in Genetic Information | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
Granny Magda
Would you say that the Chihuahua and the Great Dane are recognizably the same? Yet they are the same species (Canis Lupus).... just different subspecies. I would classify Lions and Tigers the same species but different subspecies and they should be."all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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Would you say that the Chihuahua and the Great Dane are recognizably the same? Can they interbreed? Can you show me the puppies? According to your definition, they are separate species.
I would classify Lions and Tigers the same species but different subspecies and they should be. So you're just going to ignore the source you just cited? Why bother to cite a source if you're just going to contradict it the moment it becomes inconvenient? Mutate and Survive
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
Can they interbreed? Good point. Artificial insemination would probably be the only option for those two. If you did that they might be able to have fertile offspring. but you could mix larger breeds with the chihuahua and smaller breeds with the Dane together until you get them to mix back together over a period of a couple generations. "all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I would classify Lions and Tigers the same species but different subspecies and they should be. They don't meet the definition you quoted. Do you still maintain that it is the fault of the participants here that we don't all have the same definition of species? You don't even agree with the references you cite. What is pretty clear is that lions and tigers developed distinct characteristics despite their ability to interbreed, because it turns out that they never do in the wild. What does that suggest to you about the assumptions in your OP? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Good point. Artificial insemination would probably be the only option for those two. If you did that they might be able to have fertile offspring. That's the problem; they would require artificial help. That's what makes your definition so poor. Remember that in nature there is no artificial insemination. If any natural species diverged to the point that chihuahuas and great Danes have, they would be effectively reproductively isolated. Just as Bluejay was trying tell you, what matters is that the two daughter populations are effectively isolated. It's not a matter of whether they could, in principle, interbreed, it's a matter of whether they do, in fact, interbreed. So to recap, you have acknowledged that a species can diverge to the point where they can no longer naturally interbreed. In essence, you have conceded that macro-evolution occurs. Mutate and Survive
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes, I love how you make broad claims that you don't support at all. Makes me think you cannot support your claims. And I dislike intensely that I can catch you in errors and lies with little to no effort. Particularly when the error is personal. I challenge you to cite an unsupported claim from me in this thread. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
They don't meet the definition you quoted. In what way does it not fit my definitions?"all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
If any natural species diverged to the point that chihuahuas and great Danes have, they would be effectively reproductively isolated. They are not genealogically isolated because you can breed them with dogs that are slightly larger or smaller than it, until it's descendants become big enough to breed with the Great Dane. Therefore the gene pool is not isolated so their genes can be remixed."all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
They are not genealogically isolated because you can breed them with dogs that are slightly larger or smaller than it, until it's descendants become big enough to breed with the Great Dane. Therefore the gene pool is not isolated so their genes can be remixed. Dogs are all of the same species. The only thing maintaining any breed of dog as breed is humans stepping in to through buckets of cold water onto the heat. Examples using dogs don't prove much of anything, one way or the other about evolution. And female mules can be made pregnant using artificial means. The big problem for your definition is that complete inability to breed is not the defining characteristic of how species are classified. It is 'usually' the case that species cannot interbreed. But despite your desire to otherwise require such a thing, lions and tigers are two different species. I'd also argue that this part of the discussion is actually moving away from a point you wish to establish. In the case of lions and tigers it is pretty clear that no absolute inability to breed is required to maintain or even develop diversity. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
Taq, are you trying to tell me that all life on earth evolved from a potatoe? Last time I checked the current Threory is that all life on earth evolved from a single micro-organism.
No, jbozz21. He is simply trying to tell you that at least one of the arguments in your OP is nonsense. .... Completely unsupported claim.... or maybe you just don't know what we are talking about and you got a little confused...."all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
But despite your desire to otherwise require such a thing, lions and tigers are two different species. What makes them different species NoNukes?"all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Back in Message 30 I brought up the differences between Australopithecus and modern humans as an example of macro-evolution.
A reminder, in case you have overlooked it.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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But they still don't agree with the definition of species that you present. Earlier, you said that all that mattered was that they are able or unable to reproduce. Now you have changed your tune.
So which is it? Lions and tigers are quite clearly different species, yet they can, in captivity at least, reproduce together. Great Danes and chihuahuas are the same species, yet they cannot reproduce. Clearly your definition does not work. Mutate and survive
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
And I dislike intensely that I can catch you in errors and lies with little to no effort. name even one..."all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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jbozz21 Member (Idle past 4000 days) Posts: 46 From: Provo, UT Joined: |
Back in Message 30 I brought up the differences between Australopithecus and modern humans as an example of macro-evolution. No one can even prove what species that is. There is no genetic information. For all we know it could be classified as Human if it was still alive today. The fact that scientist classify this as a different species goes right to the heart of the species definition problem."all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." -Alma 30:44 "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." Moses 6: 63
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