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Author Topic:   Do creationists try to find and study fossils?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 16 of 182 (697952)
05-02-2013 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
05-02-2013 1:48 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
faith writes:
Seen some pictures and diagrams. It's quite an impressive collection of fossils.
Seen some pictures and diagrams of fossils? Is that it? Ever done any geology in the Karoo?
faith writes:
The "evidence" that there was never a worldwide Flood is really pretty silly.
There’s absolutely no evidence for a worldwide flood. So, you think that all those people who have intensively studied every little member of the Karoo Sequence are quite silly? Every single one of them?
faith writes:
Evidence FOR the Flood is everywhere —
Not even one piece of evidence for a global flood in the Karoo Supergroup.
faith writes:
in the mere existence of the strata, and in the prodigious numbers of fossils themselves among other things.
Nope. Specialists have studied those members and formations and also the fossils. No signs of a global flood.
faith writes:
Let me guess that the increase in mammalian features is subject to interpretation.
Nope. The distinguishing factors between reptiles and mammals are very distinct. Read the link I provided.
faith writes:
I do think they are all wrong about the time factor and their basic assumptions about the relation of the fossils to each other, yes, of course.
In the Karoo Supergroup it’s very, very easy to determine which formation is above or below. The logs of 60 000 boreholes in the Karoo are available for you to study. Very easy to determine from which member the fossils are obtained.
faith writes:
But ONLY I? Hardly, despite the assaults on the Bible there do remain millions who take it seriously. I'm in good company.
It seems as if the specialists on the Karoo don’t agree with you. You know, those people who actually study the subject. Those who don’t just look at fossils in pictures. Also do hope that you realize that the overwhelming majority of scientists who do take the Bible seriously accept that the earth is very, very old , that no global flood occurred and life as we know it today came about via the theory of evolution.
faith writes:
I'm not sure why YECs don't get more involved in that aspect of the science, perhaps partly because it's been taken over by the OE people,
You mean those people who actually do the studies, the relevant scientists, have taken over science.
faith writes:
partly because YECs don't have a huge need to study fossils since we know they are the result of the Flood?
That’s why creationism is the opposite of science.
faith writes:
Still, I know many enjoy collecting them, and we could learn from them about the forms of life that lived before the Flood, perhaps some things about the climate of the time and so on. Perhaps mostly it's because YEC science is still too new to have an organized approach beyond simply trying to answer the OE claims.
Nope. It’s because YEC’s don’t do science at all. They read holy books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 1:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 2:43 AM Pressie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 182 (697954)
05-02-2013 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Pressie
05-02-2013 2:15 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
There’s absolutely no evidence for a worldwide flood.
Again, the prodigious numbers of fossils is itself evidence for the Flood and the Karoo therefore has lots of evidence for it.
So, you think that all those people who have intensively studied every little member of the Karoo Sequence are quite silly? Every single one of them?
Quite silly? No, I'm sure they know a lot about it, but they are of course wrong about the time factor as I said.
Not even one piece of evidence for a global flood in the Karoo Supergroup.
Prodigious number of fossils there.
No signs of a global flood.
Prodigious numbers of fossils.
It seems as if the specialists on the Karoo don’t agree with you. You know, those people who actually study the subject. Those who don’t just look at fossils in pictures.
They are mere men, Pressie, not gods. They are capable of being misled by the prevailing paradigm to wrong conclusions, they are capable if misinterpreting the evidence.
Also do hope that you realize that the overwhelming majority of scientists who do take the Bible seriously accept that the earth is very, very old , that no global flood occurred and life as we know it today came about via the theory of evolution.
I'm sorry, they do not "take the Bible seriously" if they accept the Old Earth belief and deny the Flood, evidence for which is obvious to me just about anywhere I look on this planet, and believe in evolution -- all of this contradicts the Bible. They are in fact following fallible human science and not the word of God.
Nope. It’s because YEC’s don’t do science at all. They read holy books.
Oh there ARE YEC scientists, Pressie, geologists too, I've quoted a few of them here even, and YECs who read about these things have a pretty good grasp of the scientific issues involved too. The vast majority of believers in evolution don't do science either you know, but you wouldn't fault them for their mere book learning because they agree with you, take whatever the establishment tells them as gospel truth, you only fault YECs because we don't agree with you.
As for "reading holy books," no, we trust in THE word of the one true God who has revealed to us things science could never find out on its own, and since establishment science denies God they can never arrive at the truth about these things, they are merely deluding themselves.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Get rid of superfluous line of "=", which was causing the page to be a bit over-wide.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 2:15 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 3:26 AM Faith has replied
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 12:37 PM Faith has replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 18 of 182 (697956)
05-02-2013 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-02-2013 2:43 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Faith writes:
Again, the prodigious numbers of fossils is itself evidence for the Flood and the Karoo therefore has lots of evidence for it.
Please explain exactly how 'prodigious numbers of fossils' in the Karoo are evidence for a global flood?
Do take in consideration that there is no evidence for a 'flood layer' in the Karoo at all, but that those fossils occur in different members and formations in the Supergroup.
Also explain why only reptilian fossils occur in lower members, while, as one goes up in the stratigraphy, fossils become more mammal-like till we get mammals (together with reptiles) higher up in the stratigraphy. How does a global flood explain that?
Oh, and by the way, it's very easy to find out which formations are above or below which formations. 60 000 borehole logs are available.
Faith writes:
Oh there ARE YEC scientists, Pressie, geologists too, I've quoted a few of them here even, and YECs who read about these things have a pretty good grasp of the scientific issues involved too.
You mean a few (not more than 20 worldwide) who trained as geologists, but stopped being scientists the moment they stopped doing science? Then joined religious organisations and write tracts for them? That lot?
Nope, sorry, people who don't do science are not scientists. They were just trained as scientists.
And again, it doesn't seem as if any YEC has ever done any work in discovering, studying and publishing anything about those Karoo fossils. Yet, people like you try to tell all those thousands of specialists, who have actually done the hard yards, that they all are wrong. That sounds quite silly to me.
And, Faith, whether you like it or not, the overwhelming majority of specialists who take the Bible seriously and are Christians accept an old earth, deny a global flood and accept the theory of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 2:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:40 AM Pressie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 182 (697957)
05-02-2013 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Pressie
05-02-2013 3:26 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Please explain exactly how 'prodigious numbers of fossils' in the Karoo are evidence for a global flood?
Dead things. You know, creatures killed suddenly en masse, buried suddenly, in the bazillions all over the world, are really good evidence for the Flood, notwithstanding your preferred alternative klutzy explanations for them.
Do take in consideration that there is no evidence for a 'flood layer' in the Karoo at all, but that those fossils occur in different members and formations in the Supergroup.
The very idea of a "flood layer" is absolute nonsense. I'm sorry some creationists think in such terms, it's extreme foolishness. A worldwide Flood would not have left a mere "layer," it would have demolished everything, stirred up everything, scoured off continents and redeposited separated layers of sediments on them, and where it didn't form strata it would have just piled things on top of each other. The general appearance of the earth as it is right now can be explained in terms of what happened during the Flood period. The separated strata are major evidence, and so is the gargantuan number of fossils. Sudden death by the bazillions, rapid burial. Great evidence.
Also explain why only reptilian fossils occur in lower members, while, as one goes up in the stratigraphy, fossils become more mammal-like till we get mammals (together with reptiles) higher up in the stratigraphy. How does a global flood explain that?
I don't know. There's enough evidence for the Flood without having to explain that part of it. I'm sure there are YECs who CAN explain that of course, although I can't at the moment.
You mean a few (not more than 20 worldwide) who trained as geologists, but stopped being scientists the moment they stopped doing science? Then joined religious organisations and write tracts for them? That lot?
No I mean practicing YEC geologists. I've posted on at least a couple of them. Steve Austin is one, can't remember the name of the Brit who is currently studying the Coconino layer of the Grand Canyon.
Yet, people like you try to tell all those thousands of specialists, who have actually done the hard yards, that they all are wrong. That sounds quite silly to me.
What's "silly" is not believing in the one true living God and His word.
And, Faith, whether you like it or not, the overwhelming majority of specialists who take the Bible seriously and are Christians accept an old earth, deny a global flood and accept the theory of evolution.
Sorry, that's false. That's not taking the Bible seriously at all. Sorry.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 3:26 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 4:42 AM Faith has replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 20 of 182 (697959)
05-02-2013 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
05-02-2013 3:40 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Faith writes:
Dead things.
Dead things are not evidence for a global flood. Lots of things die without even a small flood involved.
Faith writes:
You know, creatures killed suddenly en masse, buried suddenly, in the bazillions all over the world, are really good evidence for the Flood, notwithstanding your preferred alternative klutzy explanations for them.
Nope. In the Karoo Sequence those ‘dead things’ were certainly not all suddenly killed en masse. We have fossils of ‘dead things’ that were killed when glaciers were still covering much of the area, other in sand dunes collapsing; others in ox bows in rivers, others in sink-holes, others covered by volcanic ash, etc. Absolutely no evidence of them all killed suddenly en mass at all. Apart from that, we have not found one single fossil of elephants, zebras, lions, humans, springboks or anything like that in the Karoo Sequence. So, no, your ‘explanation’ is just wishful thinking, contradicted by the evidence.
faith writes:
The very idea of a "flood layer" is absolute nonsense.
Nope. A flood will produce a flood layer. One flood layer. That’s what will be expected during floods. We do know what deposits look like when floods occur. Just have a quick look at what happens when the Mississippi overflows it’s banks. One big mess with heaver, courser material at the bottom grading to fine-grained material at the top.
Faith writes:
I'm sorry some creationists think in such terms, it's extreme foolishness.
Everything creationists think is foolish. If you can even accuse them of 'thinking' at all.
Faith writes:
A worldwide Flood would not have left a mere "layer," it would have demolished everything, stirred up everything, scoured off continents and redeposited separated layers of sediments on them,..
Nope. Sorry for you. Floods do deposit very distinctive layers. Usually one big mess, but when the energy subsides, the course grained at material settle at the bottom and it grades to fine-grained material at the top. A flood does not deposit ‘separated layers' on top of each other . You hand-waving it away won’t change the facts.
Faith writes:
and where it didn't form strata it would have just piled things on top of each other.
Unfortunately for you, floods deposit one big messed up layer. When the energy subsides the course material will deposit at the bottom and the ‘layer’ will be grading to finer grained-material to the top. That’s not seen in the Karoo Sequence at all.
Faith writes:
The general appearance of the earth as it is right now can be explained in terms of what happened during the Flood period.
Nope. The Karoo Supergroup doesn’t show what you described at all. You repeating things not seen in reality won’t change it into reality.
Faith writes:
The separated strata are major evidence, ..
Not in the Karoo at all.
Faith writes:
and so is the gargantuan number of fossils. Sudden death by the bazillions, rapid burial. Great evidence.
Nope. The opposite is seen in the Karoo Supergroup. No indication of a global flood at all.
What's your take on the Whitehill Shale and it's relationship with the Prince Albert and Collingham below and above? Why do you think it was deposited in a flood? (For in case you don't know the Whitehill is very important because of the dinosaur fossils found in it). What do you think is the importance of the mammal like reptile fossils found in that formation?
Faith writes:
I don't know. There's enough evidence for the Flood without having to explain that part of it. I'm sure there are YECs who CAN explain that of course, although I can't at the moment.
Nope. No evidence for a global flood at all. They just do word salads trying to hand-wave it away. Like you do.
Faith writes:
No I mean practicing YEC geologists. I've posted on at least a couple of them. Steve Austin is one, can't remember the name of the Brit who is currently studying the Coconino layer of the Grand Canyon.
Steve Austin is not a practicing geologist. He writes for a religious organization. Oh, and Steve Austin wrote things about the Coconino under the name Stuart Nevins. One and the same person. Pretending that their's many of them.
Again, people trained as scientists, who stopped doing science, are not scientists anymore.
Only a few of them in the world who trained as geologists (not more than twenty) who are YEC’s. They don’t do science anymore. They write religious tracts.
Faith writes:
What's "silly" is not believing in the one true living God and His word.
Nothing to do with science.
Faith writes:
Sorry, that's false. That's not taking the Bible seriously at all. Sorry.
So, not True Christians, I guess. Only you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 6:05 AM Pressie has replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 21 of 182 (697960)
05-02-2013 5:35 AM


I see that Just being real has not even tried to defend the first accusation he made in his word salad in Message 101.
From there.
Just being real writes:
Here are some interesting facts about human fossils. Did you know that the hominid fossils are so guarded that they are virtually beyond all access by the very scientists who study human evolution and bring us most of the literature about it?
My deduction is that Just being real was twisting and turning the truth in order for the truth to become unrecognisable.
I showed the example of how 'the very scientists who study human evolution and bring us most of the literature about it' ' can and do have access to at least some of those original fossils.
Counting this and the untruth he wrote about '500 doctoral dissertations' about Piltdown Man, one has no choice but to accept and come to the conclusion that Just being real tends to tell lots of untruths.
Just being real can't be trusted to tell anything close to the truth at all and his posts can be ignored as just more Gish Gallops.

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 182 (697963)
05-02-2013 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Pressie
05-02-2013 4:42 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
That formation as I recall the drawings of it is a huge bed of dead things. Finding different causes for their deaths is just an exercise in hairsplitting. All those elements you mention would have been involved in the Flood period anyway, during or in its aftermath, glaciers, volcanoes etc.
And there is no reason to expect that all forms of life would have to be buried in the same location, the Karoo has its own particular collection.
"A flood" that produces "a" flood layer is not THE Flood that covered the entire earth to enough depth for months to wash away whatever could be washed away. That's just a typical straw man. Sorry, THE Flood did not behave as any flood we've ever seen. Everything you say about what "floods" do is just a big fat straw man. THINK for a change about what a WORLDWIDE Flood of the Biblical description would do, certainly nothing like your ordinary floods.
The God who made this planet certainly DOES have EVERYTHING to do with science, which unfortunately you'll probably find out one day the hard way.
Christians believe in Bible inerrancy, cover to cover. That includes me and millions of others back two millennia. Those who deny any part of it cannot be called Bible believers or be said to "take the Bible seriously." Taking PART of the Bible "seriously" -- if that's even possible -- is not taking the Bible seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 4:42 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by vimesey, posted 05-02-2013 6:51 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 24 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 7:22 AM Faith has replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 23 of 182 (697968)
05-02-2013 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-02-2013 6:05 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Taking PART of the Bible "seriously" -- if that's even possible -- is not taking the Bible seriously
Does that include the bit about stoning people to death if they work on the Sabbath, for example ?
Or are there bits of the Bible that can be spun to fit a modern context ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 6:05 AM Faith has not replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 24 of 182 (697971)
05-02-2013 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-02-2013 6:05 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Faith writes:
That formation as I recall the drawings of it is a huge bed of dead things.
You must have seen a creationist drawing. There's lots and lots of different formations (actually members) with 'dead things' in the Karoo. Different dead things. In different formations.
Faith writes:
Finding different causes for their deaths is just an exercise in hairsplitting.
Nope. It's called science. Some didn't die in floods. No hair-splitting involved. Just facts.
Faith writes:
All those elements you mention would have been involved in the Flood period anyway,...
Nope. A flood involves water. Hence the name.
Faith writes:
... during or in its aftermath, glaciers, volcanoes etc.
And deserts. And rivers. and deltas. So, you're not describing a flood at all.
Faith writes:
... And there is no reason to expect that all forms of life would have to be buried in the same location,....
They're not buried in the same location. Hope you do realise that the Karoo Supergroup covers a huge area? Not one location at all. Apart from that, lots and lots of different formations.
Faith writes:
... the Karoo has its own particular collection.
The Karoo Sequence has no fossils of elephants, lions, springboks, humans, leopards, aardvarks, etc. The worst is: no Rhinos! Hope you do realise that the Karoo Sequence is found in Southern Africa....the flood must have missed them.
Faith writes:
... "A flood" that produces "a" flood layer is not THE Flood that covered the entire earth to enough depth for months to wash away whatever could be washed away.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but gravity is gravity, doesn't matter where you go in the world. The coarse grained, heavy things sink first...everywhere on earth.
Faith writes:
That's just a typical straw man.
You think that gravity is a straw man? Sorry, it isn't. The coarse, heavy material sink to the bottom first. No straw-man involved.
Faith writes:
Sorry, THE Flood did not behave as any flood we've ever seen.
And also did not abide by gravity, I guess....magic.
Faith writes:
Everything you say about what "floods" do is just a big fat straw man.
Nope. Your're welcome do do the experiments yourself. Yor description involves magic.
Faith writes:
THINK for a change about what a WORLDWIDE Flood of the Biblical description would do, certainly nothing like your ordinary floods.
I have. We would find a 'flood layer', completely messed up, and as the energy goes down, the course material will settle at the bottom and it will grained into fine-grained material at the top. A Flood certainly won't deposit a 'layer' of course grained material above a 'layer' of fine-grained material.
Faith writes:
The God who made this planet certainly DOES have EVERYTHING to do with science, ...
I thought you are referring to science?
Faith writes:
....which unfortunately you'll probably find out one day the hard way.
Ah, the threat. Sorry, I don't believe in spooks who will turn me into a toad after death. Your threats are the same as a hippy threatening to punch me in my aura. Doesn't mean much to me. I just laugh.
Faith writes:
....Christians believe in Bible inerrancy, cover to cover.
It seems as if those Christian specialists don't believe the same way as you.
Faith writes:
That includes me and millions of others back two millennia. Those who deny any part of it cannot be called Bible believers or be said to "take the Bible seriously." Taking PART of the Bible "seriously" -- if that's even possible -- is not taking the Bible seriously.
And millions and millions of Christians disagree with you. Especially those specialists on the subject of geology.
Any luck on those creationist specialists who have studied those Karoo fossils yet? Or the geology, for that matter?
Edited by Pressie, : Spelling
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 6:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 2:56 PM Pressie has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 25 of 182 (698002)
05-02-2013 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
05-02-2013 1:48 AM


You're wrong on the fossil bit
Evidence FOR the Flood is everywhere -- in the mere existence of the strata, and in the prodigious numbers of fossils themselves among other things.
You are wrong from the start. Fossils have nothing to do with your great flood. Biblical scholars place the flood about 4,350 years ago. The fossils you are talking about are generally millions to hundreds of millions of years old.
The flood involved people--modern humans--with a spoken and written language. That fits with the 4,350 year date, but not with fossil beds millions of years ago.
Further, in all of those ancient fossil beds there are no remains of humans. That's because humans weren't around at the time.
And no, you can't just hand-wave the dating issue away.
I do think they are all wrong about the time factor and their basic assumptions about the relation of the fossils to each other, yes, of course.
Are you really silly enough to think that scientists can mistake Permian Period fossils for modern ones from just 4,350 years ago? And that all dating methods are off by a factor of about 5,500x?
You have no evidence for this, you just cling to your belief system and assume (hope) that everything that contradicts it is wrong.
I'm not sure why YECs don't get more involved in that aspect of the science...
For about the same reason few witch doctors apply to medical school.
...perhaps partly because it's been taken over by the OE people, partly because YECs don't have a huge need to study fossils since we know they are the result of the Flood?
In other words, you just ignore any evidence that doesn't fit your belief system. That's pretty sad.
Perhaps mostly it's because YEC science is still too new to have an organized approach beyond simply trying to answer the OE claims.
YEC "science" is an oxymoron. First, any science run by YECs would, just as you do, ignore evidence that didn't fit you belief system. Right there you have ceased to do science. Second, YEC science would be nothing but apologetics. The goal would not be to learn, but to convince themselves and others that their belief system is correct.
This is the exact opposite of science.
You were born with a big and wonderful brain, the culmination of millions of years of evolution. It is sad that you don't use it.
(And see signature block.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 1:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:15 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 26 of 182 (698004)
05-02-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-02-2013 2:43 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Again, the prodigious numbers of fossils is itself evidence for the Flood and the Karoo therefore has lots of evidence for it.
We should find just the opposite in a flood. We should find very few fossils in such a massive geologic formation that was made in a single year. You need to get a handle on what the biomass of an ecosystem really is. To produce as many fossils as is found in the Karoo formation it would require an ecosystem where animals are literally stacked on top of one another.
I think this is just another example of creationists not thinking things through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 2:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:00 PM Taq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 182 (698020)
05-02-2013 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Pressie
05-02-2013 7:22 AM


Karoo
You must have seen a creationist drawing. There's lots and lots of different formations (actually members) with 'dead things' in the Karoo. Different dead things. In different formations.
OK. As I recall they are all or at least a majority of them are aquatic reptilian type creatures. Not that it matters.
Some didn't die in floods. No hair-splitting involved. Just facts.
Excuse me, but how can you tell from a FOSSIL, which is the preserved remains of the HARD parts of the creature, how it died? You have no organs to help you determine that. You must be going on the environment in which it was found, yes? In which case there is nothing inconsistent with the Flood explanation, as it is generally understood to have been attended by volcanic action and followed by glaciation for instance. Also your horseshoe bends are understood to have formed as the water rapidly receded in certain areas. The likelihood that the fossils found in such Flood-related environments were killed by anything but the Flood itself is not great, but even if on the unlikely possibility they were killed by the volcano or the glacier or the rapid running water it's all still part of the Flood scenario.
Faith writes:
All those elements you mention would have been involved in the Flood period anyway,...
Nope. A flood involves water. Hence the name.
THE Flood involved a lot more than the rising of the water, and again to compare it to any other flood is ludicrous.
Faith writes:
... during or in its aftermath, glaciers, volcanoes etc.
And deserts. And rivers. and deltas. So, you're not describing a flood at all.
I'm describing what is generally understood to have been part of the scenario of THE Flood, much of it caused as the water receded. Rivers and deltas most certainly would have been part of the aftermath, as were huge lakes.
Faith writes:
... And there is no reason to expect that all forms of life would have to be buried in the same location,....
They're not buried in the same location. Hope you do realise that the Karoo Supergroup covers a huge area? Not one location at all. Apart from that, lots and lots of different formations.
Lots and lots of beds of fossils, i.e. dead things killed in one catastrophic event and dumped and buried rapidly in that particular area though in separate beds. There is nothing inconsistent with the Flood explanation in anything you've said.
Faith writes:
... the Karoo has its own particular collection.
The Karoo Sequence has no fossils of elephants, lions, springboks, humans, leopards, aardvarks, etc. The worst is: no Rhinos! Hope you do realise that the Karoo Sequence is found in Southern Africa....the flood must have missed them.
You aren't making much sense here. The lack of land animal fossils in a particular location means NOTHING in relation to the Flood explanation. They would have been buried in higher deposits which could have washed away as the water receded as they clearly did over the Grand Canyon for one instance, or they got buried at some other location. Why would there be a problem for the Flood explanation with the Karoo sequence being found in southern Africa? We do believe that before the Flood there were not separated continents as there are now.
Faith writes:
... "A flood" that produces "a" flood layer is not THE Flood that covered the entire earth to enough depth for months to wash away whatever could be washed away.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but gravity is gravity, doesn't matter where you go in the world. The coarse grained, heavy things sink first...everywhere on earth.
What is your point?
Faith writes:
That's just a typical straw man.
You think that gravity is a straw man? Sorry, it isn't. The coarse, heavy material sink to the bottom first. No straw-man involved.
Now you've invented ANOTHER straw man. The first straw man is the comparison to itty bitty floods in your typical refusal or inability to imagine the scale of the Noachian Flood.
Faith writes:
Sorry, THE Flood did not behave as any flood we've ever seen.
And also did not abide by gravity, I guess....magic.
The only gravity problem I'm seeing here is that your head is about to float away from being filled with hot air.
Faith writes:
Everything you say about what "floods" do is just a big fat straw man.
Nope. Your're welcome do do the experiments yourself. Yor description involves magic.
And yours involves mere stubborn refusal to imagine the obvious.
Faith writes:
THINK for a change about what a WORLDWIDE Flood of the Biblical description would do, certainly nothing like your ordinary floods.
I have. We would find a 'flood layer', completely messed up, and as the energy goes down, the course material will settle at the bottom and it will grained into fine-grained material at the top. A Flood certainly won't deposit a 'layer' of course grained material above a 'layer' of fine-grained material.
Even rivers deposit sediments in layers. It's a common phenomenon. In the Flood there would have been OCEAN ACTION too, you know, WAVES and CURRENTS -- naturally layered water, and naturally layer-producing phenomena. Sending successive deposits of separated sediments across entire continents, such as the Coconino sandstone which covers a huge swath of North America.
Faith writes:
The God who made this planet certainly DOES have EVERYTHING to do with science, ...
I thought you are referring to science?
I am.
Faith writes:
....which unfortunately you'll probably find out one day the hard way.
Ah, the threat. Sorry, I don't believe in spooks who will turn me into a toad after death. Your threats are the same as a hippy threatening to punch me in my aura. Doesn't mean much to me. I just laugh.
Indeed.
Faith writes:
....Christians believe in Bible inerrancy, cover to cover.
It seems as if those Christian specialists don't believe the same way as you.
That's because they've allowed mere fallible human imagination to replace the revelation of the God who made them.
Faith writes:
That includes me and millions of others back two millennia. Those who deny any part of it cannot be called Bible believers or be said to "take the Bible seriously." Taking PART of the Bible "seriously" -- if that's even possible -- is not taking the Bible seriously.
And millions and millions of Christians disagree with you.
Yes, that's the current revisionist apostate "Christianity" but what I said is true, Bible believers have always been Christianity, not half-Bible believers.
Especially those specialists on the subject of geology.
Who have chosen their own fallible human ponderings over the revelation of the God who made them.
Any luck on those creationist specialists who have studied those Karoo fossils yet? Or the geology, for that matter?
No but I'd like to find some and they may be out there.
=======================================================================================

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 7:22 AM Pressie has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 182 (698021)
05-02-2013 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taq
05-02-2013 12:37 PM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Again, the prodigious numbers of fossils is itself evidence for the Flood and the Karoo therefore has lots of evidence for it.
We should find just the opposite in a flood. We should find very few fossils in such a massive geologic formation that was made in a single year. You need to get a handle on what the biomass of an ecosystem really is. To produce as many fossils as is found in the Karoo formation it would require an ecosystem where animals are literally stacked on top of one another.
The usual strange failure of geological imagination. The piling of animals on top of one another is EXACTLY what the Flood would have done that NO OTHER PHENOMENON could have done. We aren't talking "ecosystems" here, we're talking the MOVING AND DEPOSITING of huge quantities of sediments and dead creatures from one place to another by ocean waves and currents.
I think this is just another example of creationists not thinking things through.
In fact it is the usual example of anti-creationists not thinking things through.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 12:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 4:54 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 182 (698024)
05-02-2013 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
05-02-2013 12:17 PM


Re: You're wrong on the fossil bit
You are wrong from the start. Fossils have nothing to do with your great flood. Biblical scholars place the flood about 4,350 years ago. The fossils you are talking about are generally millions to hundreds of millions of years old.
Nope, 4350 years is about right for their true age once you clear away all the cobwebs of the dating methods of false science.
The flood involved people--modern humans--with a spoken and written language. That fits with the 4,350 year date, but not with fossil beds millions of years ago.
Quite true, and that's because the Flood killed probably billions of human beings along with all the other living things. The word "modern" is redundant, human beings are human beings.
Further, in all of those ancient fossil beds there are no remains of humans. That's because humans weren't around at the time.
No, it's because they would have been buried in the uppermost deposits which were all washed away in the receding Flood waters.
And no, you can't just hand-wave the dating issue away.
Sure I can, and with a lot more justificatiuon than you have for hand-waving away the revelation of God.
Are you really silly enough to think that scientists can mistake Permian Period fossils for modern ones from just 4,350 years ago?
Of course they can, because there is nothing in the fossils themselves to tell them how old they are, they are relying on secondary clues they are misinterpreting.
And that all dating methods are off by a factor of about 5,500x?
Yes.
You have no evidence for this, you just cling to your belief system and assume (hope) that everything that contradicts it is wrong.
I KNOW everything that contradicts it is wrong, because I KNOW it's based on the revelation of the God who made everything scientists study. But as for evidence, there is a TON of evidence for the Flood for anyone willing to take off their "science" blinders and LOOK.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 05-02-2013 12:17 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-02-2013 3:24 PM Faith has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 182 (698026)
05-02-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
05-02-2013 3:15 PM


Re: You're wrong on the fossil bit
You are wrong from the start. Fossils have nothing to do with your great flood. Biblical scholars place the flood about 4,350 years ago. The fossils you are talking about are generally millions to hundreds of millions of years old.
Nope, 4350 years is about right for their true age once you clear away all the cobwebs of the dating methods of false science.
It doesn't have to have anything to do with dating methods. Some fossils are made when all the organic material from the organism is replaced with minerals. That just could not have happen during The Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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