Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   My Beliefs- GDR
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 31 of 1324 (698572)
05-08-2013 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
05-07-2013 2:46 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Phat writes:
To me, it all boils down to belief in human wisdom and rationalization versus belief in God...admittedly irrational for an educated mindset.
I've never, ever witnessed anyone have a "belief in God" as you describe here.
Every single "belief in God" I've ever heard of is always described in terms of human wisdom and rationalization.
They're all better described as a personal "belief in your own human wisdom and rationalization of a concept you call God."
Really, I don't see how it's possible to separate the two.
You are a person.
You have a brain that allows you to use your consciousness.
Everytime you use you're brain you're using "human wisdom and rationalization."
Belief is an exercise done using the brain.
Therefore, all beliefs are created, developed and maintained on "human wisdom and rationalization."
You can type out the words "belief in God is from God... not from my human brain."
I can also type out the words "support when standing on one leg is from air cushions... not from the human leg I'm standing on."
This does not remove the fact that standing on one leg requires you to use one of your human legs.
This does not remove the fact that believing in God requires you to use your human wisdom and rationalization.
This catch-phrase is like psychology 101... only "deep and mind-blowing" to 19 year-olds with minimal life experience.
It's nothing more than an equivocation:
"To me, it all boils down to belief in human wisdom and rationalization..."
...is talking about believing that human have all the answers... not the fact that human use human wisdom and rationalization.
"...versus belief in God."
...is talking about believing that God has all the answers... not the fact that humans use human wisdom and rationalization to believe in God as well.
But this isn't how you use the phrase.
No one here, especially atheists, has ever expressed the idea that "humans have all the answers to everything."
You use the phrase whenever someone suggests that they use human wisdom and rationalization to get to any answer... in the same way that anyone uses the same human wisdom and rationalization to get to belief in God.
Using the phrase in this manner is equivocation, and very hypocritical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 05-07-2013 2:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 1324 (698602)
05-08-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
05-07-2013 8:10 PM


GDR writes:
If God is eternal the the idea of a first cause is meaningless.
"Outside of time" (or outside of our time) is a convenient patch to slap on the holes in the idea of eternity. I don't think the authors of the Bible would have agreed with you. Their idea of eternity seems closer to our idea of deep time, though they had no conception of how deep "ordinary" time really is. They were most likely thinking of eternity in terms of thousands of years, not even millions or billions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 05-07-2013 8:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 1:53 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 33 of 1324 (698618)
05-08-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
05-07-2013 7:44 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
Faith writes:
Doesn't really answer my question, GDR, whether Jesus' death on the cross paid for our sins against God, sins that damn us since we can't pay for them ourselves. Did His death pay for our sins? I don't see an answer to that in your post.
The trouble is Faith it seems to me that you have all of these formulistic questions so that you can decide whether or not someone is a real Christian or not and whether they have been saved. Frankly it paints a very minimalist picture of God. IMHO God is bigger, wiser and more loving than a god that is intent that you have all pat answers to all the right questions. Read the Bible. God wants us to have hearts that reflect His heart for us. All the law and the prophets are fulfilled when we truly love our neighbour as our self. This question as you have phrased it here is a case of making your god in your image. You are coming up with an anthropomorphic god.
In one way, I suppose you can say His death paid for our sins, although frankly I’m not even sure what that means. The point is that sin is evil and evil is part of our life. In a very real sense the ultimate evil is death and through Jesus’ death and resurrection God defeated evil. Evil and death do not have the last word.
Jesus died in place of the Hebrew nation as the one true Israelite. Jesus represented everything that the Jews had been called to be. The message of Yahweh was supposed to be, not just for the Jews but for the world as we see in the Abrahamic promise. By extension then we can see that Jesus stood in for the sins or evil of all mankind. Does that constitute paying for our sins? In one way I suppose it does but on the other hand sin and evil still exist. Our hearts are far from pure and there will be an accounting for that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 05-07-2013 7:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-08-2013 6:58 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 1324 (698623)
05-08-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
05-08-2013 2:37 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
Tangle writes:
The majority of Christians are Catholics, they believe that in order to get to heaven you must be baptised. They say that their beliefs are based on the scripture that you choose to interpret in a different way.
It's pretty much a central part of all Christian belief that in order to be saved you need to believe in Christ. It's an extremely modern view that maybe it's not necessary - probaably heresy.
I hadn't actually realized that the Catholic church was that large a percentage. Actually it is about 50% but that is more than I would have guessed. Here is the wiki site that gives the numbers. Size of Christian denominations
When we read through the OT we can see that humans have always had a proclivity to make laws that are attributed to God in order to keep maintain control. Jesus took all the laws that the early Jews had come up with and told them instead that it is all about love, and I have no doubt that if we were listening he would tell us the same thing today.
Here is the passage that I believe is the passage that thinking is based on. From John 3:
quote:
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. " 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
When this is read, even in the context of this brief exchange, we can see that Jesus is talking about the water involved in child birth and not in baptism. For that matter, the Kingdom of God was the Kingdom that Jesus established for His followers in the here and now. It does not mean that not being part of the Kingdom of God means that you are off to hell. Baptism is essentially a public statement that one is committing oneself to the church, or in the case of infant baptism committing one’s child to the church or in other word to the Kingdom of God. (I realize it doesn't always look like that is the case but that is the plan.)
I assume that by believing in Christ you mean believing in His resurrection and divinity. It is my contention that believing in Christ means believing in and incorporating the Word of God into our hearts, so that we are truly humble, loving, merciful and just.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 2:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 2:57 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 1324 (698628)
05-08-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
05-08-2013 12:04 PM


Ringo writes:
"Outside of time" (or outside of our time) is a convenient patch to slap on the holes in the idea of eternity. I don't think the authors of the Bible would have agreed with you. Their idea of eternity seems closer to our idea of deep time, though they had no conception of how deep "ordinary" time really is. They were most likely thinking of eternity in terms of thousands of years, not even millions or billions.
I don't see it as being outside time. Time is how we experience change, and from what I'm read time is one of those things that we use but have virtually no real understanding of. It is still an enigma to us. As I mentioned in the OP I speculate that if we had multiple time dimensions that we could move around infinitely in time in the same way that we can move infinitely around in space. That would allow for an eternal existence.
I'm wondering why you would think that the Biblical authors would think of eternal only lasting for any specific period of time. I know we often exaggerate and say that it took an eternity for something to happen but I don't believe that is what the Biblical authors would be thinking. It seems to me that they are pretty clear that God always was and always will be.
AbE What do you mean by "deep time"? I've never heard that term before.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 05-08-2013 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 05-08-2013 2:07 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 1324 (698632)
05-08-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
05-08-2013 1:53 PM


GDR writes:
It seems to me that they are pretty clear that God always was and always will be.
"Always" is itsef an expression of time. It simply means an unimaginable period of ime. As I have already mentioned, ancient people couldn't imagine millions or billions of years. Neither can we, really.
I don't see any reason to think the Bible authors were using the idea of "always" any differently than we do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 1:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:38 PM ringo has replied
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 05-09-2013 6:28 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 37 of 1324 (698645)
05-08-2013 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
05-08-2013 1:37 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
GDR writes:
I hadn't actually realized that the Catholic church was that large a percentage. Actually it is about 50% but that is more than I would have guessed. Here is the wiki site that gives the numbers. Size of Christian denominations
I'm aware of that wiki and I only mentioned Catholic baptism as a single example. All the orthodox religions and the majority of protestant plus a bunch of others require a belief in Christ for entry qualifications.
And that's just today, when a lot of religious thinking is liberalising and accommodating - 300 years ago, your interpretations would have been an anathema.
I'm not against you on this point - it seems obvious to me that if a god exists at all, he mustn't give a damn (sic) about worship and belief, it's far more important whether a person behaves decently and it's obviously un-Christian to believe otherwise.
However, I think that this point makes religious believe utterly redundant. Behaving decently has nothing to do with Christ or religion. Occam slices it out of the way.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 1:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:28 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 5:34 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 38 of 1324 (698674)
05-08-2013 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
05-08-2013 1:04 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
In one way, I suppose you can say His death paid for our sins, although frankly I’m not even sure what that means.
There are many places in scripture that are very clear what it means, but i've decided not to post them here. If anyone would like to know what they are I may quote them in a private message or email.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 1:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 05-08-2013 7:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:07 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 1324 (698675)
05-08-2013 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
05-08-2013 6:58 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Faith writes:
GDR writes:
In one way, I suppose you can say His death paid for our sins, although frankly I’m not even sure what that means.
There are many places in scripture that are very clear what it means, but i've decided not to post them here. If anyone would like to know what they are I'd be happy to quote them in a private message or email.
If that is true then God is just a fool.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-08-2013 6:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 40 of 1324 (698683)
05-08-2013 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
05-08-2013 6:58 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Faith writes:
There are many places in scripture that are very clear what it means, but i've decided not to post them here.
I took the time in two posts to tell you what I think it means and how it was that Jesus fulfilled that. How about you tell me how you understand it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 05-08-2013 6:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 2:58 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 41 of 1324 (698685)
05-08-2013 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
05-08-2013 2:57 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Tangle writes:
However, I think that this point makes religious believe utterly redundant. Behaving decently has nothing to do with Christ or religion. Occam slices it out of the way.
I think religion does matter. In a sense what you are saying is right if all that matters is what happens to me after I die. The Christian religion informs us that this is a teleological world, which means that what we do isn't all about me but that we are working for a purpose that involves all of creation. It isn't all about "me".
Also, I think that behaving decently does have a lot to do with Christ. I agree that if someone truly turns to having a desire to follow Christ when necessarily make them behave more decently that their next door neighbour. I do believe however that if someone becomes a follower of Christ, they will with the help of God's Spirit become a person who behaves more decently than they had before. I have had personal experience of that.
Also, Jesus in the Bible calls for us to join together as His followers so that we can serve Him through communities that gather in His name. For example our little church works together with a church in the US to support a home for young women with no other place to go in Kampala Uganda. On our own we wouldn't be able to do that.
Occam tells us that we should look to the simplest solution. Firstly we would probably differ on what the simplest solution is and secondly the simplest solution isn't necessary the correct solution anyway.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 2:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 2:39 AM GDR has replied
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 6:23 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 42 of 1324 (698687)
05-08-2013 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
05-08-2013 2:07 PM


It seems to me that they are pretty clear that God always was and always will be.[/qs]
Ringo writes:
"Always" is itsef an expression of time. It simply means an unimaginable period of ime. As I have already mentioned, ancient people couldn't imagine millions or billions of years. Neither can we, really.
I don't see any reason to think the Bible authors were using the idea of "always" any differently than we do.
This is the Oxford definition of eternal:
quote:
lasting or existing forever; without end:
I used the term always to mean eternal. The Bible uses the term eternal for both God and His Kingdom in the Bible. They are talking about an existence with no beginning and no end. I'm not saying that is proof of what they have written I am only saying that there really isn't any doubt about how it was meant to be understood.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 05-08-2013 2:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 05-09-2013 12:29 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 43 of 1324 (698717)
05-09-2013 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
05-08-2013 8:28 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
GDR writes:
I think religion does matter. In a sense what you are saying is right if all that matters is what happens to me after I die. The Christian religion informs us that this is a teleological world, which means that what we do isn't all about me but that we are working for a purpose that involves all of creation. It isn't all about "me".
No, that's not what I'm saying. Behaving decently is not just about me - it's about living a moral life which by definition, means treating others fairly and decently.
Also, I think that behaving decently does have a lot to do with Christ.
And I and a few billion Muslims, Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and Pagans don't, so where does that get us?
I agree that if someone truly turns to having a desire to follow Christ when necessarily make them behave more decently that their next door neighbour.
I think it probably true that those with fervent beliefs are more likely to do 'good works' than the average 'decent' person. But leading a day to day moral life has very little to do with saving babies in Africa and so on.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 1324 (698720)
05-09-2013 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by GDR
05-08-2013 8:07 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Two posts? I only saw one.
I could spell it out GDR, but you have fundamentalist relatives who could spell it out for you just as well, and I don't want to subject God's word to more of the abuse that is directed against it here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 1324 (698729)
05-09-2013 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
05-08-2013 2:57 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
All the orthodox religions and the majority of protestant plus a bunch of others require a belief in Christ for entry qualifications.
"Belief in Christ" is something even nonChristians sometimes espouse these days, it's a New Age belief in particular -- the "Cosmic Christ" which isn't the true Christ -- so it has to be clarified what the Christian belief is. The Protestant belief is that we are to believe in Christ's death on the cross for our sins, and that our works (being decent human beings for starters) can't do a thing to save us, it's all by God's grace through Christ's sacrifice. The Catholic belief, which of course I don't regard as Christian at all, is that faith in Christ plus good works will save you (by which they mean, along with being a decent human being, performing the rituals of Roman Catholicism). GDR's beliefs are really just a version of salvation by works, as are the beliefs of most religions, and one could even say paradoxically it's the belief of nonbelievers too, who all think being a good and decent person ought to merit some kind of reward. That's not Christianity, which, to say it again, is all by grace, the gift of salvation through the death of Christ. Works are also the product of grace, that is built on salvation. There is no other "belief in Christ" that means anything.
.
And that's just today, when a lot of religious thinking is liberalising and accommodating - 300 years ago, your interpretations would have been an anathema.
You are quite right, but they are still anathema because so far from true Christianity.
I'm not against you on this point - it seems obvious to me that if a god exists at all, he mustn't give a damn (sic) about worship and belief, it's far more important whether a person behaves decently and it's obviously un-Christian to believe otherwise.
In that you ARE in accord with GDR and with most of humanity for that matter, because the idea that we should be rewarded for being good and decent people, according to our own ability to judge such things, is pretty much built into our fallen character. Unfortunately it's false by God's standards, which show us that we're "sinners," i.e., at odds with God, and need to be saved from His just punishment for that. Which is why He sent His Son to die in our place.
However, I think that this point makes religious believe utterly redundant. Behaving decently has nothing to do with Christ or religion.
Absolutely true. However, it IS enshrined in most religions so you aren't quite right about that part. But otherwise you're right that behaving decently is the credo of most human beings and it would be redundant if that's all Christianity had to offer as well, but fortunately it offers something quite different. GDR has merely managed to invent a rather convoluted version of the universal religion of fallen humanity which is salvation by works, or pharisaical self-righteousness, which he thinks is humility but is quite the opposite.
ABE: I think I'll add some comments on your next post as well:
GDR writes:
Also, I think that behaving decently does have a lot to do with Christ.
Tangle writes:
And I and a few billion Muslims, Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and Pagans don't, so where does that get us?
You're right, it has nothing to do with Christ. Behaving decently is the moral standard of normal fallen humanity, enshrined and elaborated in most of the natural religions of fallen humanity.
Tangle writes:
I think it probably true that those with fervent beliefs are more likely to do 'good works' than the average 'decent' person. But leading a day to day moral life has very little to do with saving babies in Africa and so on.
Quite true. Christians ARE motivated by their salvation to do good works, and those of us who were not such good and decent people before we were saved may out of gratitude do them with even more zeal than the average Christian, but that doesn't make Christianity about being a good and decent person who does good works; some unbelievers manage to be better than all of us at that.
============================================================
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : keep thinking of ways to clarify this or that
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 2:57 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 05-09-2013 12:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024