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Author Topic:   My Beliefs- GDR
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 1324 (698731)
05-09-2013 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
05-08-2013 8:28 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
I think religion does matter. In a sense what you are saying is right if all that matters is what happens to me after I die. The Christian religion informs us that this is a teleological world, which means that what we do isn't all about me but that we are working for a purpose that involves all of creation. It isn't all about "me".
There is something very confused about this, GDR. You keep imputing pride and self centeredness to the very tenets of salvation, saying it's just "all about me," which is one reason I don't see the point of answering you, it's just too strange and the reverse of the truth.
Personal salvation if experienced rightly is a humbling experience because it is based on the recognition that I have absolutely nothing to offer in myself, I'm a useless worthless sinner no matter how "good and decent" my life may be in an outward way. As Christ said, He came not to save the righteous, but sinners. You have to be a sinner, know you are a sinner, to receive salvation. That can be very humbling indeed, whereas thinking we are good and decent people, or that we can do anything at all to serve God on our own, is a source of pride.
The salvation itself is a free gift to us lousy sinners, a gift He paid for with His own blood on the cross. It's a gift that both saves us and equips us to do the good works He requires of us.
When we are saved then we are also given the means to do the good works that will fulfill God's purposes for the whole Creation. You make it sound as if somehow "we" could do such works, but no, God works all His own purposes THROUGH us, we can't do anything on our own, and He does it through His saved and redeemed people, nobody else can receive His influence, you MUST be born again. This is a theme throughout the New Testament. HE does it all, and if we are saved we are eager participants in His work, but none of it comes from us. Our whole Christian life is intended to be a humbling and self-emptying -- yes, often we fight God as He tries to accomplish this in us -- an emptying of all our "good works" for instance, so that He can do HIS works through us. As long as we're full of our own notions of good works we interfere with Him.
ABE: Here, let me try to say this a different way, answering your notion that personal salvation is somehow "all about me" and unrelated to fulfilling God's Kingdom purposes:
As I say above, fulfilling God's Kingdom purposes is what we aim to do when we are saved, but what I didn't say is that's the whole purpose of salvation. That is, we can't do a thing for God's Kingdom UNLESS we are saved, and the point of salvation is that God is making a New Creation of each of us individually, for the purpose of creating a people who are ABLE to do the work of establishing His Kingdom, which is "not of this world" although we are looking forward to a Millennium of His rule of this world nevertheless. The Kingdom will not come except through His saved, redeemed and recreated people. "We are HIS workmanship," says scripture.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 2:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 1324 (698732)
05-09-2013 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
05-08-2013 2:07 PM


Finite human wisdom versus infinite timeless wisdom
GDR writes:
When we read through the OT we can see that humans have always had a proclivity to make laws that are attributed to God in order to keep(or) maintain control. Jesus took all the laws that the early Jews had come up with and told them instead that it is all about love, and I have no doubt that if we were listening he would tell us the same thing today.
These days, humans make "laws" concerning morality, social equality, and ethics using science. In my opinion, humans are still desiring to maintain control, only now instead of interpreting Gods law their own way they simply have eliminated God from the equation entirely...justifying societal control on the idea that we(humanity) are our own authority.
GDR writes:
I'm wondering why you would think that the Biblical authors would think of eternal only lasting for any specific period of time. I know we often exaggerate and say that it took an eternity for something to happen but I don't believe that is what the Biblical authors would be thinking. It seems to me that they are pretty clear that God always was and always will be.
Revelation talks of Jesus Christ who was, is, and will be. Past, Present, and Future. It also mentions a Beast..(a literal and/or archetypical "villain" who once was, now is not and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life. Jesus was. There is no indication of a Beginning. The Beast Once was which indicates a created (or finite) part of time.
Ringo writes:
"Always" is itself an expression of time. It simply means an unimaginable period of time. As I have already mentioned, ancient people couldn't imagine millions or billions of years. Neither can we, really.(...)I don't see any reason to think the Bible authors were using the idea of "always" any differently than we do.
Look at God and Job:
quote:
Job 1:1-- In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.(...)Job 1:3--He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.
We read of the trial Job faced. We read of how he questions the One who was, is and always will be. He even curses his own finite sliver of time...from his birth to his death.Job 3:3, 3:11 among other places.
The problem with human wisdom is that it attempts to frame every issue as if it were we that were before the issue and after the issue.Human wisdom is but a finite sliver of time. Humans themselves are but a finite sliver of time(and space) and yet we dare to frame/and or conceive of all of it. The vastness...the infinite.
Job is wise enough to know that finite human wisdom won't get him out of this trial.
quote:
Job 6:13--Do I have any power to help myself, now that success has been driven from me?
He is wise enough to know that even his friends cant answer his questions, well meaning though they may be. They have finite ability to reason.
quote:
Job 6:24-25--Teach me, and I will be quiet; show me where I have been wrong.
25 How painful are honest words! But what do your arguments prove?
Job is hurting, and through the finite wisdom of his friends he also questions(yet never curses) God.
quote:
Job 7:7-- Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath; my eyes will never see happiness again.
Job knows his life is finite. His wisdom is finite. His sliver of time has, in his mind, been cursed.
Job also knows that God is more powerful than he is. The fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom. Modern man seems to have lost this concept.
So....getting back to this concept of time.....
Ringo writes:
I don't think the authors of the Bible would have agreed with you. Their idea of eternity seems closer to our idea of deep time, though they had no conception of how deep "ordinary" time really is. They were most likely thinking of eternity in terms of thousands of years, not even millions or billions.
Look again at Job.
quote:
Job 11:7-9 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
8 They are higher than the heavens-what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave-what can you know? 9 Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea.
Whether it be eons, thousands of years, hundreds of miles or billions or trillions of miles, the concept is that God is greater. His limits are limitless. His wisdom exceeds our wisdom. Our wisdom and conceptualization is and always will be finite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 05-08-2013 2:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 05-09-2013 12:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 48 of 1324 (698762)
05-09-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
05-09-2013 2:39 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
GDR writes:
I think religion does matter. In a sense what you are saying is right if all that matters is what happens to me after I die. The Christian religion informs us that this is a teleological world, which means that what we do isn't all about me but that we are working for a purpose that involves all of creation. It isn't all about "me".
Tangle writes:
No, that's not what I'm saying. Behaving decently is not just about me - it's about living a moral life which by definition, means treating others fairly and decently.
I think you missed my point. As I understood you, you had suggested that if we can be right with God by being a decent person then why bother with religion. What I was trying to point out is that if the only point of organized religion was to get individuals right with God then I agree with your point, however that makes the point of connecting with a religion all about me and my salvation. The point of religion is to bring together into community God minded people in order to serve God by bringing His love to the world in ways that communities can that individuals can’t. I gave you an example of our little church doing that in Uganda.
qs=Tangle And I and a few billion Muslims, Buddists, Jews, Hindus, and Pagans don't, so where does that get us?[/q s]
You have responded out of context. I was only talking about the influence of Christ in terms of Christians. I wasn’t implying that others can’t be moral, decent people without accepting Christianity. Obviously different ideologies differ. That doesn’t mean that we allow our differences to make enemies of one another. (Unfortunately as humans we haven’t had much of a history of actually putting that into practice. )
Tangle writes:
I think it probably true that those with fervent beliefs are more likely to do 'good works' than the average 'decent' person. But leading a day to day moral life has very little to do with saving babies in Africa and so on.
In our church we pray to be forgiven for the wrong thing we’ve done and for the right things we’ve left undone. I think that we are called to more than just being a moral person in our day to day affairs. I think that we are called to make this a better world for all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 2:39 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 1:00 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 1324 (698770)
05-09-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
05-08-2013 8:38 PM


GDR writes:
This is the Oxford definition of eternal....
The problem is that the word "eternal" and the concept of eternity were made up long after the Bible was written.
Realistically, when somebody uses terms like "forever", he means that we don't know when it began and/or when it might end. You're reading too much into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 05-08-2013 8:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 1324 (698771)
05-09-2013 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
05-09-2013 5:34 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
Faith writes:
The Protestant belief is that we are to believe in Christ's death on the cross for our sins, and that our works (being decent human beings for starters) can't do a thing to save us, it's all by God's grace through Christ's sacrifice.
That isn't belief in Christ; it's a cult of personality.
Edited by ringo, : Capitalized "Faith" because she isn't as humble as I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 5:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 1324 (698772)
05-09-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
05-09-2013 6:28 AM


Re: Finite human wisdom versus infinite timeless wisdom
Phat writes:
Job is wise enough to know that finite human wisdom won't get him out of this trial.
Remember it was God who got Job into his trial.
God has a point when he says that human wisdom tends to be short-sighted - but it's also a copout. It's like a parent saying, "You'll know better when you're my age." You may indeed be wiser when you're older but you won't necessarily agree with your parents when you're older. Their wisdom too may be flawed.
Phat writes:
Whether it be eons, thousands of years, hundreds of miles or billions or trillions of miles, the concept is that God is greater.
That's what I'm saying.
Phat writes:
His limits are limitless.
That part you're making up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 05-09-2013 6:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 52 of 1324 (698773)
05-09-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
05-09-2013 11:04 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
GDR writes:
I think you missed my point. As I understood you, you had suggested that if we can be right with God by being a decent person then why bother with religion.
That's one part of the point.
The point of religion is to bring together into community God minded people in order to serve God by bringing His love to the world in ways that communities can that individuals can’t.
I'll ignore the bringing God's love into world bit as it begs the question but the idea that only religions can do some forms of charitable works is obviously silly. Religions do not have a monopoly on trying to make the world a better place.
I gave you an example of our little church doing that in Uganda.
Well that's terrific, but so what? The company that I own donates all it's services for free to any UK registered charity that asks us - I do not need a church, a god or a religion to do my bit to make the world a better place. Not only that, but I do it in the sure knowledge that there is no reward for my deeds in an afterlife.
If religion isn't required to get me a happy afterlife and it's not required to motivate me to try to make the world a better place and live a decent life, just why is it needed at all?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 11:04 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 2:30 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 1324 (698774)
05-09-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
05-09-2013 1:00 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Tangle writes:
If religion isn't required to get me a happy afterlife and it's not required to motivate me to try to make the world a better place and live a decent life, just why is it needed at all?
It may not be required for you.
What is your point?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 1:14 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 54 of 1324 (698775)
05-09-2013 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
05-09-2013 1:05 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
jar writes:
It may not be required for you.
Self evidently
What is your point?
That religion isn't necessary for GDR (or anyone else) to lead a good life, do good things and get into heaven.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-09-2013 1:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 1324 (698783)
05-09-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
05-09-2013 1:14 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Tangle writes:
jar writes:
It may not be required for you.
Self evidently
What is your point?
That religion isn't necessary for GDR (or anyone else) to lead a good life, do good things and get into heaven.
okay. If that is your belief then fine. You are of course welcome to your beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 1:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 2:15 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 56 of 1324 (698784)
05-09-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-09-2013 6:23 AM


Re: The Gospel Message
Faith writes:
Two posts? I only saw one.
Message 26 Message 33
Faith writes:
There is something very confused about this, GDR. You keep imputing pride and self centeredness to the very tenets of salvation, saying it's just "all about me," which is one reason I don't see the point of answering you, it's just too strange and the reverse of the truth.
Personal salvation if experienced rightly is a humbling experience because it is based on the recognition that I have absolutely nothing to offer in myself, I'm a useless worthless sinner no matter how "good and decent" my life may b e in an outward way. As Christ said, He came not to save the righteous, but sinners. You have to be a sinner, know you are a sinner, to receive salvation. That can be very humbling indeed, whereas thinking we can do anything at all to serve God on our own is a source of pride.
The salvation itself is a free gift to us lousy sinners, a gift He paid for with His own blood on the cross. It's a gift that both saves us and equips us to do the good works He requires of us.
When we are saved then we are also given the means to do the good works that will fulfill God's purposes for the whole Creation. You make it sound as if somehow "we" could do such works, but no, God works all His own purposes THROUGH us, we can't do anything on our own. This is a theme throughout the New Testament. HE does it all, and if we are saved we are eager participants in His work, but none of it comes from us.
Now I'm at least minimally spelling out what I said I didn't want to spell ou t here.
I agree that it is only because of God that we can do any good works at all. As a matter of fact, it is my contention that we can only have any idea of the term good works because of God. However it doesn’t take any particular theological belief to perform good works.
Yes, I agree that if we truly give our hearts over to Christ that somehow through the Spirit we are made more aware of the right choices that we should make. It is all about changing our hearts to be more loving and more in tune with God’s desire and that we take on board His love for His creation. It is about having a heart that desires what God desires. (Read Psalm 37). If we genuinely do this then yes we have salvation. However, the main point is not that we are made right with God and have salvation but that we are saved in order to become part of God’s Kingdom to be God’s agents of love in the world.
In your posts you make personal salvation the central focus of becoming a Christian. That is not the central Gospel message, and like I have said several times it puts the focus on the self instead of where it is supposed to be. The underlying message in that is if you decide that you believe this specific theology you get to live forever. The Gospel message is a Kingdom of God message. It is a message that if you accept this you have the opportunity to become part of the Kingdom established by God through Jesus in order to serve — not to be served. Making personal salvation the main focus of Evangelism is not the message that we read in the Gospels.
The Gospels are also very clear that it is having hearts that desire what God wants us to desire, such as love of neighbour, and that we not be self-focused. It isn’t our theological beliefs that make us right with God. Christians aren’t the only ones that have hearts that love selflessly, and as Matthew points out in 7:21 there are many Christians who don’t have hearts that love selflessly.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 6:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-09-2013 2:27 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 57 of 1324 (698785)
05-09-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
05-09-2013 1:51 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Jar writes:
okay. If that is your belief then fine. You are of course welcome to your beliefs.
Well no, my belief is that god doesn't exist at all - so as far as I'm concerned it's all a redundant argument.
My interest is with GDR's beliefs. It seems to me that if you can get into heaven, lead a moral life and do good works without a belief in god, then the rest is community interest and worthless worship. (Worthless in the sense that his god doesn't require it but maybe GDR does.)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 05-09-2013 1:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 05-09-2013 2:17 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 05-09-2013 4:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 1324 (698786)
05-09-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Tangle
05-09-2013 2:15 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
If GDR requires it then it is neither worthless or unneeded.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 2:15 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 1324 (698788)
05-09-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
05-09-2013 2:12 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
The Gospels are also very clear that it is having hearts that desire what God wants us to desire, such as love of neighbour, and that we not be self-focused
My point is that we cannot do that unless we are saved, which means we know we are sinners for whom Christ died, and we have put all our trust in His death in our place, in His blood shed for us, knowing we are forgiven, that the charges against us have been paid in full. That's salvation and there is no entry to the Kingdom of God without it. God has to remake our hearts but we have to be set free of the sentence for sin first. In our fallen nature we are selfish, we have to be born again, recreated, and even then it's a daily struggle to continue to walk by the Spirit and not by the old fallen flesh.
Having a truly unselfish heart is the aim of salvation. Without salvation we can be outwardly "good and decent" people, we can do good works, we can support charities and work to improve the world, but to be truly Christ's we have to be saved so that He can transform our inner being.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 2:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by GDR, posted 05-09-2013 6:15 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 60 of 1324 (698789)
05-09-2013 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
05-09-2013 1:00 PM


Re: The Gospel Message
Tangle writes:
I'll ignore the bringing God's love into world bit as it begs the question but the idea that only religions can do some forms of charitable works is obviously silly. Religions do not have a monopoly on trying to make the world a better place.
I have never claimed that and have often stated just the opposite. Yes, I believe that it is only because of God’s love that we can do good works, or even understand the idea that works can be good, but I don’t suggest that only manifests itself in religious people.
Tangle writes:
Well that's terrific, but so what? The company that I own donates all it's services for free to any UK registered charity that asks us - I do not need a church, a god or a religion to do my bit to make the world a better place. Not only that, but I do it in the sure knowledge that there is no reward for my deeds in an afterlife.
That’s great. That’s one of the reasons that I have a problem with Faith’s form of Christianity. If it is primarily about me and my salvation then there is the risk that when I do a good work that I may have it in the back of my mind that God owes me one. Our good works shouldn’t be so that what we do is about either getting a reward from God, praise from others or to assuage guilt. It should be because that is where we find our joy, peace and contentment regardless of reward.
Tangle writes:
If religion isn't required to get me a happy afterlife and it's not required to motivate me to try to make the world a better place and live a decent life, just why is it needed at all?
I can only speak as a Christian but I do contend that Christianity may not be required but it will enhance both of those benefits. Also, truth matters and if Christ was resurrected then what He had to teach us is extremely important. If Jesus was not resurrected then I agree with you completely.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2013 1:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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