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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 126 of 181 (698710)
05-09-2013 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
05-09-2013 1:05 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:

Oh, I agree most assuredly. So this most egregious speculation within what can at best be described as a weak hypothesis is totally inappropriate.
In more plain language ... it's crap.

Why? I'm just saying that science should go wherever the evidence leads, without preconceived ideas. What scientist would ever have even come close to guessing the world as depicted by relativity and QM at the turn of the 20th century?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 3:08 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 129 of 181 (698756)
05-09-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Straggler
05-09-2013 8:37 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

A belief in miracles isn't 'congruent' with science. Nor is the notion that a brane-world equals God's supernatiral dwelling place.

I don't disagree. My general point is broader than that. All I'm saying is that science theorizes about other dimensions or universes. I wasn't tying my speculations to any one particular theory.

It is just that Christianity talks about God being eternal and in some way being connected and even intervening with our world. It sounds very much like an interconnected universe and/or other dimensions of our own universe.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 8:37 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 2:45 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 133 of 181 (698829)
05-09-2013 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Straggler
05-09-2013 2:45 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

But does it? If you start from the unwavering assumption that God exists in some mysterious realm that is somehow "interconnected" then I suppose I can see how one might bend over backwards enough to start conflating Kaluza Klein Dimensions or Brane Worlds with some sort of notion of heaven.

But there is no more evidential justification for considering these same theoretical physics speculations as suggestive of the actual existence of Narnia (for example).

Again I don't disagree with that. Mind you it could be because I only have the vaguest idea about those theories anyway.

Let me try this another way. A hundred years ago Christians believed that God was present with them and that God was eternal. It was taken on faith but with no real way of being able to conceive how it might be possible.

As a Christian I believe that God is present with us and that He is eternal, which is still taken on faith. However, now that science has opened up a world of other dimensions and other universes, we now at least have a way of picturing or comprehending how what we believe on faith might actually work.

Thank you for the kind words by the way.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Straggler, posted 05-09-2013 2:45 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 05-10-2013 2:10 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 135 of 181 (698977)
05-12-2013 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straggler
05-10-2013 2:10 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

Firstly - In order for this to be correct it is necessary for the things physicists are talking about (Kaluza Klein dimensions, Brane worlds etc.) to be comparable to the things theists are talking about (i.e. heaven). But beyond p oetic phraseology in popular science articles (e.g. "an entire universe interwoven silently with our own" - for full quote see below) there isn't really any basis for such comparisons at all is there?


I have to defer to your far greater knowledge of modern physics to compare what I am talking about to specific theories. Science does tell us that there is much more out there that we can’t perceive than what we can. There does seem to be a consistent view that there are other dimensions and/or universes. Physicists now have specific theories and then look to verify them.

I have no doubt that there is no scientific theory that proposes that we have an interconnected universe from which God interacts with our world. In addition I have no doubt that there is no scientific theory that proposes that there are dimensions that are imperceivable to us with our 5 senses, but with different senses we might perceive an entirely different reality that might include God.

However, both of those ideas are consistent with the suggestion that there are other universes and/or dimensions that so far we haven’t been able to perceive. I guess my point is that prior to science suggesting the possibility of other universes and dimensions, we had no frame of reference to consider an eternal god or an omni-present interactive god. If nothing else it gives me a way to imagine my faith that wouldn’t be available to me otherwise.

Some day science might be able to do more but unless there is some quantum leap forward in the next period of time I’m afraid I won’t be around to see it. Maybe in the next life my great great great grand-children will be able to tell me all about it.

Straggler writes:

Secondly - Christian notions of cosmology down the ages including the positioning of God's dwelling place are very very far from compatible with anything modern science is even remotely suggesting:

Once again I’ll defer to you far greater knowledge. The only thing I would add is that it seems to me that if QM and relativity have proven anything they have at least proven that the basis of our existence is anything but intuitive, so who knows what the future holds in the science world. (I know that is a god of the gaps argument, so just take it as pure conjecture and nothing more. )

You are certainly right about the OT and its cosmological view not being compatible with what we now objectively now know. It was written with the science that they had then. They believed essentially in a 3 tier world with us in the middle, heaven up there somewhere and the underworld beneath us. I am just referring to the two concepts of God that have Him being eternal and that He intervenes with us in ways that we normally aren’t able to directly perceive.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 05-10-2013 2:10 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2013 3:46 AM GDR has responded
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 05-13-2013 8:43 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 137 of 181 (698992)
05-12-2013 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Tangle
05-12-2013 3:46 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Tangle writes:

People place god somewhere out of reach. Then, when we advance enough to go there, they have to change the model.

Certainly. It would be pretty foolish not to change the model as we continue to learn.

Tangle writes:

I suppose it's human to want an explanation but I really don't understand why you can't just call God magical and be done with it.

Actually that is a really good point. It certainly would be easier and IMHO that is essentially what the fundamentalists do. The Bible is the inerrant word of God and that pretty much settles things. I could just let things stand with what I know, (or if you like, think I know ), now and get on with life.

However, just like any scientist who wants to continue to learn I'm a Christian who wants to continue to learn. I want to form my conclusions based on as much information that I can get. I went for years in the manner that you describe. I accepted the Christian faith in my mid thirties but it was only about 12 years ago that I decided that I really wanted to delve into my faith in an attempt to come to a conclusion to that age old question from Pilate of "what is truth". As a result I started reading books on science and theology which is about all I've read for years now. (Except for Harry Potter because my niece was so into it.)


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2013 3:46 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2013 5:29 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 139 of 181 (699000)
05-13-2013 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Tangle
05-12-2013 5:29 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Tangle writes:

But you're not learning anything about your god, you're simply plonking him somewhere else every time you hear a new scientific idea about our universe.
God is in the clouds until we get to fly above them, now he's in the 12 dimension or hiding behind a brane. It's not science, it's non-science or just nonsense. It's just you - and others - making stuff up to fit your old god into a new world.
It's just sound silly - i'd understand you more if you just had a belief that he's outside knowledge. At least that would have some internal consistency.

I’m not being that specific. I am interested in science for its own sake but also speculate on how it might fit with my theological beliefs. I’m not trying to fit my beliefs into any specific theory but only to the general idea of the existence of other universes and/or dimensions. I’ve already done my best to explain essentially the same thing to Straggler.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2013 5:29 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2013 2:55 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 142 of 181 (699013)
05-13-2013 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Tangle
05-13-2013 2:55 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Tangle writes:

Most Chrisians believe that God is everwhere and with them, how do the physics of omnipresence work?

I don't know, but I have speculated how it might work in the thread on my beliefs. Briefly though, I have speculated that we could be an we our universe is an emergent property of a greater reality, and that we connect with that greater reality in ways that we don't perceive.

Be very clear that I know that is highly speculative and that I agree that I am looking for ways that the world might work that are compatible with my pre-existing theistic beliefs.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2013 2:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 05-14-2013 5:25 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 143 of 181 (699077)
05-14-2013 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
05-13-2013 8:43 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

You seem to have created a view of looking at the world that provides a win-win situation for the theistically inclined. One where failure is ignored and ambiguity is confidently proclaimed as success.

I don't think that's a fair comment. People so often think of Christianity as involving an inerrant Bible. I don't and so it does leave a lot more ambiguity as where my faith is concerned. The bottom line for me is that there is a God, God is loving just and good as seen in the words of Jesus, that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life and words, and that the NT writers did a good job of recording the life and teachings of Jesus with all that entails.

When science or historians come up with new information then I'm all ears when it comes to adjusting my thoughts around those beliefs. If there was proof that my fundamental beliefs are wrong then they would have to be adjusted as well but as has been pointed out they are pretty much unfalsifiable.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 05-13-2013 8:43 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 05-14-2013 12:12 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 149 of 181 (699177)
05-15-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straggler
05-14-2013 12:12 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

But I thought you believed in miracles? Feeding thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish would violate conservation of energy and raising the dead would seem to be equally in violation of scientific evidence regarding decomposition and suchlike.

I really don't see how one can both believe in miracles and claim to be adjusting their beliefs to be in line with science.

Well, NoNukes answered this better than I ever could and I agree with what he wrote. Yes there are things that I believe that can't be answered by science. I remember N T Wright writing that all life is a miracle but sometimes God does things that surprise us.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 05-14-2013 12:12 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 3:20 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 150 of 181 (699178)
05-15-2013 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tangle
05-14-2013 5:25 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:

It's very obvious that what you are saying about physics and how it relates to your god is highly speculative - and that's just you saying it; others would be much harsher.


sticks and stones.......

Tangle writes:

By saying that you're looking for ways to make your religious beliefs compatible with the discoveries of science, you're knowingly applying confirmation bias - which is deeply odd.

I have no doubt there is a confirmation bias in my reasoning but that is true of all of us. Given sufficient reason to change my mind though, I am prepared to and actually have changed my views.

Also, I am not looking for ways to make my religious beliefs compatible with science, I am looking for ways for science to inform my religious beliefs.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 05-14-2013 5:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2013 2:42 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 154 of 181 (699198)
05-15-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
05-15-2013 2:42 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Tangle writes:

Yes, but that's why science is science - it's set up to remove individual subjectivity and bias. As you cherry pick your science and jemmy it into your beliefs, you're actively seeking out bias and grasping it with both hands. You have lost any critical, skeptical capacity you had because of what you believe.

Actually that isn't true. Yes, as science introduces new evidence I am prepared to change my views. The atheists on this forum are always being critical of the theists who hang on to their views when the run counter to sciences and now you criticize me because I agree that science does have something to tell us about the world. There's no pleasing you guys, which I agree isn't my objective anyway.

Tangle writes:

I don't think it's remotely possible for any discovery in science to change your mind because you've found an effective way of accommodating it into your beliefs. For example, you ignore the fact that there is no evidence at all for prayers being answered or spiritual healing, yet it's a core belief of Christianity that God intervenes in our world.

Sure there is no objective evidence that prayers are answered but it doesn't mean they aren't. That isn't a question that I would expect science to answer. No Nukes did a great job of addressing that. You might have a look at his posts.

Tangle writes:

You can't explain in any way, the concept of God beingin all places simultaneously but accept the belief anyway. No doubt QM will be levered into place in due course.

Well if you read back I have already done that by suggesting that God's dimension involves multiple time dimensions as a speculative theory.

Tangle writes:

What scientific - or other - 'reason' would make you change your mind?

I don't think that there is a scientific principle that would make me change my mind because science answers different question that what Theology does. That does not mean that my theology in anyway limits what science has to tell me.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 05-15-2013 2:42 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by 1.61803, posted 05-15-2013 6:32 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 155 of 181 (699203)
05-15-2013 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Straggler
05-15-2013 3:20 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

If there are any instances where your beliefs conflict with scientific knowledge and you have to invoke words like "miracle" to explain these then you cannot legitimately claim to have adjusted your theistic beliefs to be compatible with scientific knowledge.
Sure - Your particular exceptions to scientific knowledge (the odd dead body ressurrected here and there, a miraculous quantity of calories derived from a few fish and loaves etc. etc.) are pretty small scale in comparison to those invoked by hardcore creationists.
But this is a difference of scale rather than a difference of principle. In principle you are happy to reject a scientifically compatible conclusion in favour of a theistic belief.

Science doesn't tell us that so-called miracles are impossible. All that science can say is that if they happen they are happening contrary to natural law.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 3:20 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 7:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 158 of 181 (699221)
05-15-2013 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by 1.61803
05-15-2013 6:32 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
1.61803 writes:

It depends on what it is. If miracles are facts then would not science attempt to explain them?

I suppose it could, but how do you expect it to do that?

1.61803 writes:

If science show them to be in violation of the laws of physics and impossible. Then one must either believe what science says is true or what ones beliefs say are true.

Science doesn't say it's impossible. Science can only say that in order for it to happen that natural laws have to be suspended.

1.61803 writes:

You must accept the belief in miracles based on faith alone and a concious individual choice to accept miracles without any bases in fact. Because once you begin to look for facts; they are cold hard things that poke holes in faith. At least that has been my experiance. I can not for the life of me will myself to believe something that is dimetrically opposed to the knowlege of the world as we know it. My faith and belief in miracles has slowly evaporated. I salute your beliefs and your ability to conjoin them with scientific knowlege.

Thanks, but just for the record I have not come to this all on my own. My beliefs are consistent with the likes of C S Lewis, N T Wright, Tim Keller, John Polkinghorne, Francis Collins and John Lennox. These are all highly educated people with Polkinghorne being a world renowned physicist, Collins a world renowned biologist and Lennox a world renowned mathematician. N T Wright is probably the foremost Christian scholar we have today and Lewis was one of the greatest Christian philosophers we have ever had. I am actually pretty orthodox and certainly far from unique.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by 1.61803, posted 05-15-2013 6:32 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 05-17-2013 1:31 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 160 of 181 (699323)
05-17-2013 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straggler
05-17-2013 1:31 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

You could say this about literally any claim at all. Following this logic would mean that any claim about any event (no matter how absurd or scientifically illiterate) was not in conflict with science.

Absolutely, so in order to come to come to any conclusions we have to consider other avenues of thought such as philosophy or theology. In the end I think that even you would agree that the existence of an intelligent designer is more likely the Dawkin's FSM.

In the end there isn't even absolute certainty with even the most fundamental aspects of science either. Science can tell us reliably what the speed of light is because the measurements have always been consistent, but it can't tell us that tomorrow the speed of light won't have changed.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 05-17-2013 1:31 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Straggler, posted 05-17-2013 2:07 PM GDR has responded
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 05-17-2013 2:08 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5083
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 163 of 181 (699331)
05-17-2013 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tangle
05-17-2013 2:08 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

Absolutely, so in order to come to come to any conclusions we have to consider other avenues of thought such as philosophy or theology.

Tangle writes:

Aaarrrrgghhhhh!

Very philosophical with theological inferences Tangle.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 05-17-2013 2:08 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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