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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 16 of 2241 (700118)
05-30-2013 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Stile
05-30-2013 11:28 AM


Re: Bible doesn't provide a better method for anything
All I can say- and with best wishes for your well being is : that I hope that these prophetic events take place while you are still alive to witness them. And that doing so will cause you to look for something deeper than your self.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Stile, posted 05-30-2013 11:28 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 05-30-2013 2:38 PM PaulGL has responded

  
Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
Junior Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-14-2013


Message 17 of 2241 (700123)
05-30-2013 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
05-15-2013 5:19 PM


A God that has the power to create the entire Universe should not have any problem with making humanity ready to accept new ways of thinking.

I think the problem was our low scientific developpement at the time.

How many of us can actually picture the distance of 1 000 km in their head? 100 000 km? 1 light year?

At the time of JC, no man would have been able to even imagine or understand such numbers. How many years do we teach our children to have a basic knowledge? How many more year would it have taken to teach to somebody needing to do essential work like farming or fishing every day and already with a different way of thinking? Then how much time to teach to everybody, with the limited means of the time?

Surely not enough in a lifetime, and with all the misunderstanding likely to occur, it would have chased away any newcomer that would consider it as a load of nonsense.

Unless He directly gives us the knowledge in our head. But that could be considered as an intrusion and imposing a way of thinking, thus destroying our free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-15-2013 5:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-30-2013 3:34 PM Zift Ylrhavic Resfear has not yet responded
 Message 20 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 3:58 PM Zift Ylrhavic Resfear has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 18 of 2241 (700130)
05-30-2013 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 1:32 PM


Have fun
All I can say- and with best wishes for your well being is : that I hope that these prophetic events take place while you are still alive to witness them. And that doing so will cause you to look for something deeper than your self.

Thank-you for the well wishes, they are always appreciated.
But I'm not sure if they're warranted, I know that many things exist that are deeper than myself and my current knowledge, I seek them out constantly.

For me, the Bible simply isn't deep enough.
However, I do hope that you've found what you're looking for.

Humans are a strange bunch, what works for some never seems to work for all.
That's another mark that the Bible was written by man:

The Bible is all that is required for some. Just not for all.
If it was divinely inspired, there would be no barrier it could not cross.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 1:32 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 4:06 PM Stile has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 2241 (700137)
05-30-2013 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
05-30-2013 1:49 PM


A God that has the power to create the entire Universe should not have any problem with making humanity ready to accept new ways of thinking.

I think the problem was our low scientific developpement at the time.

How many of us can actually picture the distance of 1 000 km in their head? 100 000 km? 1 light year?

At the time of JC, no man would have been able to even imagine or understand such numbers. How many years do we teach our children to have a basic knowledge? How many more year would it have taken to teach to somebody needing to do essential work like farming or fishing every day and already with a different way of thinking? Then how much time to teach to everybody, with the limited means of the time?

No time at all. For an omnipotent god that created the universe that would just be the snap of a finger.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Zift Ylrhavic Resfear, posted 05-30-2013 1:49 PM Zift Ylrhavic Resfear has not yet responded

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 20 of 2241 (700142)
05-30-2013 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
05-30-2013 1:49 PM


God respects free will. He doesn't want either couch potato lovers nor spiritual robots. He will not force Himself upon anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Zift Ylrhavic Resfear, posted 05-30-2013 1:49 PM Zift Ylrhavic Resfear has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 5:40 PM PaulGL has responded

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 21 of 2241 (700144)
05-30-2013 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
05-30-2013 2:38 PM


Re: Have fun
There is only ONE way to determine the Truth, and is not within the capacity of the mind nor in the sphere of knowledge. Fortunately, God practices KISS. 1. He came to us as a man and removed all the barriers. 2. Now all that the Father is, and all that the Son accomplished, are available to us as the Spirit. Put Him to the test. If He is real and available, then you can receive Him. How? KISS. "The same Lord is rich unto ALL who CALL upon His name". This is not a mind-numbing chant. He is omnipresent and will respond to His name. "No man can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit". Do this out loud (in the privacy of your room, if preferred). Just tell Him: "Lord, help my unbelief. I want to know You". And if you don't want to test this now, at least file it for future reference when the 'fecal matter encounters the air-moving device'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 05-30-2013 2:38 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 2731 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 22 of 2241 (700159)
05-30-2013 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 3:58 PM


PaulGL writes:

He will not force Himself upon anyone.


Worship him or burn in hell for eternity.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 3:58 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 5:55 PM Panda has responded
 Message 43 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 3:51 AM Panda has not yet responded

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 23 of 2241 (700166)
05-30-2013 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Panda
05-30-2013 5:40 PM


your choice
He went through a lot of trouble to provide a free choice for you. If you choose to remain in the same condition of your birth- that is also a choice, with consequences. God is love, but He has standards. He is the only unselfish being in the universe, and will give all that He is to you. But you have to choose to receive Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 5:40 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:10 PM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 6:22 PM PaulGL has responded
 Message 26 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2013 8:30 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33439
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 24 of 2241 (700172)
05-30-2013 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 5:55 PM


Re: your choice
Yup, the "Kiss Hank's Ass" brand of Christianity. Keep marketing that travesty.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 5:55 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2731 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 25 of 2241 (700173)
05-30-2013 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 5:55 PM


Re: your choice
PaulGL writes:

He went through a lot of trouble to provide a free choice for you. If you choose to remain in the same condition of your birth- that is also a choice, with consequences.


So, like being robbed at gun-point, you do have a choice.
You can choose to be shot (rather than hand over your money) - much like you can choose to go to hell.

By your own logic: armed robbers do not use force - their victims have a choice.
God does not use force: you can always choose to burn in hell for eternity.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 5:55 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 10:12 PM Panda has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


(2)
Message 26 of 2241 (700184)
05-30-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 5:55 PM


Re: your choice
He went through a lot of trouble to provide a free choice for you

He's all knowing and all powerful, how much trouble was it really?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 5:55 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 2406 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 27 of 2241 (700191)
05-30-2013 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Panda
05-30-2013 6:22 PM


Re: your choice
There are two, and only two, explanations for the means whereby life now exists on this planet.
First, there is the explanation that life on earth was divinely created.
Since, obviously, there is no way that the above explanation of the origin of life can be subjected to any scientific analysis, it would be profitless to discuss its merits (at this point).
The other means I am referring to is, of course, the theory of evolution. By evolution, I mean the process or processes whereby life as we now know it has come about from an originally inorganic universe through purely mechanistic actions in conformity with the laws of the physical universe. Keeping these parameters in mind, let us now see what relevant conclusions may be derived:...

Given the vastness of the universe and the consequent profusion of life, what must the ultimate consummation of the process of evolution be?
It is my contention that the inevitable and ultimate result of evolution is this: that somewhere, sooner or later, an entity would be evolved through either natural or artificial means which would no longer be subject to time.

What are the implications of such a conclusion?

Such an entity would in all practicality be:

1. Omnipotent and
2. Omniscient and
3. Omnipresent.

Such an entity would, by definition, be God.
By no means am I intending to speculate about the origin of God.
Such speculation is vain at best and blasphemous at worst. My intention is to show that no matter what method that you employ to explain the existence of life; the inevitable implication is the existence and reality of God.

THE LOGIC OF IT ALL

I will do all my pleasure: ... I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:10﷓11)

I. Divine Purpose

Granted the existence and reality of God, let us consider the following extremely relevant question: What would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being, knowing, having, and being capable of anything and everything, possibly want? The only possible thing that such a being would want would be an entity, perfectly complementary to Him, that was His of its own choice, and not out of necessity.

II. THE NECESSITY FOR A SECONDARY WILL

Obviously, if there existed only one will (God’s) in the universe, there would be no possible way for such a divine purpose to be realized, as all actions would necessarily be in response to that divine will. Therefore, it is absolutely essential to the attainment of such a divine purpose that there exist in addition to divine will a secondary, opposing will.

III. FREE WILL

It should be equally apparent that, in order for such a complementary entity to choose to belong to God, it must have an independent, free will.

IV. FURTHER STEPS NECESSARY FOR THE ATTAINMENT OF DIVINE PURPOSE

A. Such a being with a free will, in order to practically choose to belong to God, must exist in and be subject to the process of time. A choice made outside of and apart from the process of time would be a one﷓shot thing (pro or con) and would be as much a matter of chance as of choice.
B. Such a being must not only embody a free will, but must also be capable of embodying both the divine will and the opposing will, with the free will located between the two.
C. But God is eternal, necessitating that the part of said being capable of apprehending divine will be of a like eternal nature, necessitating that both the other parts of such a being having the free will and capable of containing the secondary will be temporal. (The specifics of this will be elaborated in the next chapter.) A further and confirmatory reason for the temporality of the part capable of containing the secondary will is, again, the fact that should a being make the wrong choice it would be of eternal consequence if that part of its being capable of containing the secondary will was also eternal. Once again, this would cause matters to be subject as much to chance as choice.
D. It should be somewhat apparent by now that for divine purpose to be achieved on other than a one﷓shot chance situation, such a temporal being must first choose the secondary will and then by a series of many choices choose the divine will.
E. Yet if such a being chooses the secondary will first, how can it then possibly choose the divine will? Only by God partaking of the temporal nature of such a being by the process of incarnation.
F. There remains but one further step necessary: that of the attainment of E. above being made available to said being. After E. then, God would have to retain the accomplishment of such a temporal incarnation yet make it available to said being in the form necessary for it to be able to choose it, i.e., the same as the eternal part of that being. It should be obvious by now whom the being with a free will that we have been talking about is.

A rational, informed person must despise religion- and hate it because it is the most destructive cultural force in man's history. However, it is unjustified to blame (& reject) God because of religion. Religionists (not merely Jews) killed Christ, thinking that they were serving God. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 6:22 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Panda, posted 05-31-2013 6:25 AM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Stile, posted 05-31-2013 10:26 AM PaulGL has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2013 2:53 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2731 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 28 of 2241 (700204)
05-31-2013 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 10:12 PM


Re: your choice
Well, nothing you posted in any way contradicts my statement.
Instead, you simply copy and pasted some random spam you have posted in many other places.
If you can't actually support your claims then it would be more honest for you to just admit that.

God tries to force people to worship him by threatening them with burning in hell for eternity.
Your claim that he never forces himself on to people is clearly false.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 10:12 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 29 of 2241 (700226)
05-31-2013 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 4:06 PM


Thanks for another reason that the Bible is written by man
There is only ONE way to determine the Truth, and is not within the capacity of the mind nor in the sphere of knowledge.

This is something you need to show. You seem unable to do that.
If you can show this to be valid, many people would be interested in your results.

So far, the best method we've ever come across for learning about Truth is the scientific method.
It's produced the best results.
Your statement has produced no results. Therefore, it is inferior.

Fortunately, God practices KISS

No he doesn't.
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid = The engineer's practical version of Occam's Razor.
If God is anything, He is complicated.

If He is real and available, then you can receive Him. How? KISS. "The same Lord is rich unto ALL who CALL upon His name".

This would be simple (KISS), but it doesn't work, so it isn't.

He is omnipresent and will respond to His name.

There is nothing simple about omnipresence.

Do this out loud (in the privacy of your room, if preferred). Just tell Him: "Lord, help my unbelief. I want to know You".

Again, you provide another proof that the Bible is the word of man and not divinely inspired.

This very method has been done by many, many people.
It is done openly, willingly, lovingly, respectfully, meekly, humbly and with all their hearts.

Some get a response.
Some do not get a response.

But... the part that really shows that the Bible is the word of man and not divine is:
Even those who get a response do not show any signs of change or any shift away from those who do not get a response.

They do not experience any feelings reserved just for them.
They do not experience any specific feelings more deeply.
They are not happier.
They are not kinder.
They are not more forgiving.
They are not more loving.
They are not smarter.
They are not better looking.
They do not have more money.
They are not more athletic.
They are not luckier.
They do not avoid accidents better.
They do not get hurt less.
They are not more free.
They are not less gullible.
And they certainly do not gain a better sense of fashion.

All Christians show us, definitively, that even if you do feel like you get a response... it doesn't do anything anyway.
It is, in fact, no different at all then simply imagining that you got a response.

That is what shows beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Bible is nothing more than the works of man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 4:06 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 06-14-2013 12:35 PM Stile has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 30 of 2241 (700228)
05-31-2013 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 10:12 PM


People are Different
I. Divine Purpose

Granted the existence and reality of God, let us consider the following extremely relevant question: What would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being, knowing, having, and being capable of anything and everything, possibly want? The only possible thing that such a being would want would be an entity, perfectly complementary to Him, that was His of its own choice, and not out of necessity.

And another point that the Bible is not divine, but man-made. Do you have more?

Why would an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being want an entity perfectly complementary to Him?
They wouldn't, they wouldn't want or desire anything at all.

Who do we know that spends it's life wanting an entity that is perfectly complementary to themselves?
Humans!

This is nothing more than another proof that your ideas about the Bible are man-made, and not divinely inspired.

A rational, informed person must despise religion- and hate it because it is the most destructive cultural force in man's history.

This is not true.
A rational person should be able to identify that people are different.
This would then inform them that religion would be a great thing for some people, and a bad thing for others.

Therefore, a rational, informed person would accept religion as a wonderful tool that helps many people. Just not some universal tool that helps all people... because it doesn't. History has proven this to us many, many times by means of many, many unnecessary deaths.

"Religion" isn't the problem.
The problem is being able to identify when to apply religion.

"People" in the general sense are extremely broad and varied.
If a carpenter went to work on some extremely broad and varied jobs... do you think he would only pack one tool for the day?
Go-Go-Gadget People-Fixer!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 10:12 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
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