Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   My Beliefs- GDR
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 226 of 1324 (700483)
06-03-2013 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by GDR
06-03-2013 1:53 PM


faith writes:
We've been over this before, GDR. The accusation of "genocide" and unjust stoning is just evil-speaking against God whose actions are always just. You don't like the death penalty for sin apparently, but that's what is being illustrated in the OT, and it's meant to teach us that sin deserves drastic punishment.
Then if it is just for God then as we are His image bearers then it must be just for us. Why then aren’t we carpet bombing Islamic countries? Why aren’t we taking prostitutes out and stoning them to death? This is what your god would have us do.
You are right; I’m opposed to the death penalty. Ultimately I trust God’s perfect judgement over our imperfect judgement. I also have another reason for opposing the death penalty. Jesus made it clear that what He wants from all of us is that we have compassionate hearts. Somebody has to carry out the execution on our behalf. That does nothing but harden that individual’s heart, and for that matter it hardens the hearts of the society in general as we all become participants in the execution.
If we believe in a loving god who wants us to be loving people then how can we believe that loving god that would want to harden the hearts of the people that he loves by involving them in such atrocities? It absolutely boggles my mind that you can hold those two concepts of God together in your mind.
It seems that you are prepared to worship a god regardless of how abhorrent his characteristics. Of course that is what the pagans did because that is where the power is, and that was the OT view of God. Thankfully we have Jesus to correct that distorted image of God.
faith writes:
You ignore such teaching at your own peril.
Hmmm. Spending eternity with a god who wants me involved in genocide and public stoning doesn't seem like such a great option. I think I'll take my chances.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by GDR, posted 06-03-2013 1:53 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 06-03-2013 6:05 PM GDR has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 227 of 1324 (700485)
06-03-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
06-03-2013 2:27 PM


Ringo writes:
Crucifixion was a deliberately slow form of execution. If Jesus died that quickly, the Romans failed in their purpose.
Maybe the soldiers had some hot dates that night. Or perhaps they had so many cruxifixions scheduled they needed the cross sooner than later. Lumber was at a all time scarcity since Rome came to town with their cruxifixion practices.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-03-2013 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 06-04-2013 12:07 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 228 of 1324 (700487)
06-03-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
06-03-2013 2:27 PM


ringo writes:
Who said anything about evidence? It's a response to your claim that Paul "would have" done this or that. It's an alternate scenario of what he "would have" done.
So rather than Paul’s own account as well as Luke’s you choose to propose 20th century fiction.
ringo writes:
You really should stop pretending to know what Paul "would have" done.
Of course we both give our opinions. Mine is based on the only accounts we have. I don’t claim that it is conclusive.
ringo writes:
Crucifixion was a deliberately slow form of execution. If Jesus died that quickly, the Romans failed in their purpose.
They were the experts and they declared Him dead. So now you have a badly beaten man, erroneously declared dead, moving a heavy stone away from the tomb that was being guarded by Roman soldiers. Maybe you do believe in the tooth fairy after all.
ringo writes:
As I said, if you witnessed those events, you wouldn't honestly say that it was a "different kind of physicality". You'd say it was a scam.
If you are an eye-witness of Jesus being alive after being dead, and appearing in a room that had been locked you might think that this is more than a scam. The whole account is written in a way that says — I know this sounds strange but this is what happened.
ringo writes:
(By the way, a "different kind of physicality" doesn't count as a resurrection, as far as I'm concerned.)
The Christian message is essentially that what God did for Jesus 2000 years ago He will do for all creation at the end of time. In that sense Jesus is the prototype for what is to come when all things are renewed.
By the way, I have no expectation of changing your mind as I am just trying to lay out my own beliefs as they had been taking another thread off track. Frankly I appreciate your posts because they make me think through just what it is I believe which is always a good thing. Anyway, this is just my way of saying thanks.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-03-2013 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 06-04-2013 12:36 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 1324 (700501)
06-03-2013 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by GDR
06-03-2013 3:06 PM


murder versus justice
faith writes:
We've been over this before, GDR. The accusation of "genocide" and unjust stoning is just evil-speaking against God whose actions are always just. You don't like the death penalty for sin apparently, but that's what is being illustrated in the OT, and it's meant to teach us that sin deserves drastic punishment.
Then if it is just for God then as we are His image bearers then it must be just for us.
Now that's just silly. Nothing in scripture makes us EQUAL to God, on the contrary His transcendent majesty is so far above us we're told not to think Him like us at all.
And besides, the image of God in us was compromised at the Fall, to put it mildly. Human beings killing anyone intentionally (except of course in the role of executioners of just punishment) are committing murder, but God cannot do anything unjustly.
Why then aren’t we carpet bombing Islamic countries? Why aren’t we taking prostitutes out and stoning them to death? This is what your god would have us do.
That's a lie, GDR. You know perfectly well it is.
You are right; I’m opposed to the death penalty. Ultimately I trust God’s perfect judgement over our imperfect judgement. I also have another reason for opposing the death penalty. Jesus made it clear that what He wants from all of us is that we have compassionate hearts.
It is not compassionate to the murderer's victims to let the murderer live, it is not compassionate to the society in general to tolerate murderers, kidnappers, rapists and so on. Putting them to death satisfies JUSTICE and protects society.
As for your image of God argument, here's how God put it to Noah:
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
The blood of the image of God shed by man unjustly is to be avenged.
Somebody has to carry out the execution on our behalf. That does nothing but harden that individual’s heart, and for that matter it hardens the hearts of the society in general as we all become participants in the execution.
That's a lot of made-up hooha. Where's your evidence? If the execution is just that should not be the effect, the effect should be a sense of justice enacted, and a sense that society has some protection from criminals.
Nevertheless they had firing squads so that the actual shooter whose bullet killed the criminal wouldn't know it was his that did it, to protect him from any doubts he might have. I don't know how it is done by other means, but it makes sense that the actual executioner be protected from knowing it.
If we believe in a loving god who wants us to be loving people then how can we believe that loving god that would want to harden the hearts of the people that he loves by involving them in such atrocities? It absolutely boggles my mind that you can hold those two concepts of God together in your mind.
What I find absolutely disgusting is the attitude that would equate murder and other criminal and evil acts with the justice of the death penalty. I find THAT abhorrent in the extreme.
It seems that you are prepared to worship a god regardless of how abhorrent his characteristics.
I worship a God of perfect justice. You seem to worship a fake god who is fine with letting murderers go free.
Of course that is what the pagans did because that is where the power is, and that was the OT view of God. Thankfully we have Jesus to correct that distorted image of God.
Your view of Jesus is a complete fabrication.
faith writes:
You ignore such teaching at your own peril.
Hmmm. Spending eternity with a god who wants me involved in genocide and public stoning doesn't seem like such a great option. I think I'll take my chances.
I took that line out of that post so you got an earlier version. I put in how we are to learn from God's severe punishments that sin deserves severe punishment, and that since we've all sinned it's also supposed to teach us that we need a Savior who would take our punishment for us. That's what Jesus did. You get rid of the reason for punishment and then you get rid of the good news that we can be saved from it; in other words you get rid of the whole gospel of Jesus Christ and reduce him to a nice teacher instead.
However, you are again a liar. God does NOT "want you involved in genocide" and you know it. You are twisting scripture. And you don't seem to see your own hateful prideful heart in any of this.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by GDR, posted 06-03-2013 3:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by GDR, posted 06-03-2013 8:10 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 230 of 1324 (700507)
06-03-2013 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
06-03-2013 6:05 PM


Re: murder versus justice
Faith writes:
Now that's just silly. Nothing in scripture makes us EQUAL to God, on the contrary His transcendent majesty is so far above us we're told not to think Him like us at all.
And besides, the image of God in us was compromised at the Fall, to put it mildly. Human beings killing anyone intentionally (exc ept of course in the role of executioners of just punishment) are committing murder, but God cannot do anything unjustly.
Of course we’re not equal to God but we are called to reflect His image into the world. None of us come even come close to doing it perfectly except of course for Jesus. Yes we are flawed beings but we God has high hopes for us.
GDR writes:
Why then aren’t we carpet bombing Islamic countries? Why aren’t we taking prostitutes out and stoning them to death? This is what your god would have us do.
Faith writes:
That's a lie, GDR. You know perfectly well it is.
It isn’t a lie at all. I know that you certainly don’t think we should and I don’t know any fundamentalist that does. The reason for that is that even though you say you believe that the Bible is inerrant and is the literal Word of God you don’t actually believe it. If you actually believed what you say you believe then you would have to condone genocide and public stoning in the right circumstances, and frankly the world situation now isn’t very much different than when God supposedly commanded the ancient Jews to do just that.
GDR writes:
It is not compassionate to the murderer's victims to let the murderer live, it is not compassionate to the society in general to tolera te murderers, kidnappers, rapists and so on. Putting them to death satisfies JUSTICE and protects society.
It may satisfy the need for revenge but it also makes the statement that God can’t deliver an ultimate just solution. Society can be protected by keeping offenders in custody. As far as the victims are concerned you might want to remember that we are called to pray to be forgiven as we gorgive, which is not to say that it isn’t often incredibly difficult. Here is a story of a man who was a close friend of my brother. Dale Lang
You quote Genesis:
Faith writes:
The blood of the image of God shed by man unjustly is to be avenged.
This is exactly it. Who or what do you follow? Do you follow an inerrant Bible or an inerrant Jesus? Jesus tells us that we are to love our enemies, turn the other cheek etc. Is it going to be Biblianity or Christianity.
Faith writes:
That's a lot of made-up hooha. Where's your evidence? If the execution is just that should not be the effect, the effect should be a sense of justice enacted, a nd a sense that society has some protection from criminals.
Nevertheless they had firing squads so that the actual shooter whose bullet killed the criminal wouldn't know it was his that did it, to protect him from any doubts he might have. I don't know how it is done by other means, but it makes sense that the actual executioner be protected from knowing it.
Do you ever read what war does to our young people? Being involved in killing even in a just cause does tremendous damage to those involved. State execution is an unnecessary killing done to satisfy the need for vengeance when there is no belief in an ultimate justice.
GDR writes:
If we believe in a loving god who wants us to be loving people then how can we believe that loving god that would want to harden the hearts of the people that he loves by involving them in such atrocities? It absolutely boggles my mind that you can hold those two concepts of God together in your mind.
Faith writes:
What I find absolutely disgusting is the attitude that would equate murder and other criminal and evil acts with the justice of the death penalty. I find THAT abhorrent in the extreme.
I would agree if I had done that. I was referring to the atrocities of genocide and public stoning in the OT. Sure murder is more abhorrent than the death penalty, but you don’t resolve a greater evil with a lesser evil.
Faith writes:
I worship a God of perfect justice. You seem to worship a fake god who is fine with letting murderers go free.
If you worship a god of perfect justice then why don’t you trust him to deliver perfect justice? I have not suggested letting murderers go free.
Faith writes:
Your view of Jesus is a complete fabrication.
It’s in the Bible.
Faith writes:
However, you are again a liar. God does NOT "want you involved in genocide" and you know it. You are twisting scripture. And you don't seem to see your own hateful prideful heart in any of this.
You do like labelling people as liberals and liars. Is it a lie to explain to you what I believe? I don’t think that you’re lying; I just think that you are badly mistaken. I realize that God does not want us involved in genocide because of Jesus. If I only had the OT to go on and I believed it to be inerrant I would have a different view of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 06-03-2013 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 06-03-2013 8:39 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 231 of 1324 (700508)
06-03-2013 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by GDR
06-03-2013 8:10 PM


Re: murder versus justice
It isn’t a lie at all. I know that you certainly don’t think we should and I don’t know any fundamentalist that does. The reason for that is that even though you say you believe that the Bible is inerrant and is the literal Word of God you don’t actually believe it.
This is how you're lying. The entire history of Bible Christianity agrees with me about this, which I'm sure you know. Do you think all those "fundamentalists" can't read as well as you can? They know how to read the OT in relation to the NT, and we all believe ALL of it, CORRECTLY, in its proper context. You are the one who can't read it accurately though you insist on your own misreading despite 2000 years of better exegetes than you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by GDR, posted 06-03-2013 8:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 06-04-2013 10:52 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 232 of 1324 (700546)
06-04-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
06-03-2013 8:39 PM


Re: murder versus justice
Faith writes:
This is how you're lying. The entire history of Bible Christianity agrees with me about this, which I'm sure you know. Do you think all those "fundamentalists" can't read as well as you can? They know how to read the OT in relation to the NT, and we all believe ALL of it, CORRECTLY, in its proper context. You are the one who can't read it accurately though you insist on your own misreading despite 2000 years of better exegetes than you are.
You do like throwing that term lying around. Last time you accused me of lying about something else, and when I point out that you’re wrong, you just move the goal posts. Name calling doesn’t really enhance your argument, or for that matter your witness of the Christian faith.
In terms of how people have understood the Bible you might consider this. You have no doubt heard numerous sermons on the Prodigal Son. If you had never heard the parable before you would probably think the sermon was about something that really happened. The point is that the parable is true in the message conveyed even though the story isn’t historical. The truth is to be found in the Bible without it all having to be literally true.
As John tells us, the Word of God which has existed from the beginning was fully incarnate in Jesus, and as Christians it is with Jesus that we should begin instead of deciding that the entire Bible is equal or more accurate than what we see in His life and words.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 06-03-2013 8:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 06-04-2013 10:28 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 1324 (700558)
06-04-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by 1.61803
06-03-2013 3:24 PM


1.61803 writes:
Maybe the soldiers had some hot dates that night. Or perhaps they had so many cruxifixions scheduled they needed the cross sooner than later. Lumber was at a all time scarcity since Rome came to town with their cruxifixion practices.
Well, the Jews had a "hot date" with the Sabbath that night. They were the ones who wanted to hurry it up. And the Romans didn't do anything to hurry it up. They were prepared to break Jesus' legs at the Jews' request but they didn't need to; he was already dead.
It's a bit of an anti-climax, like a guy dying of natural causes on death row.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by 1.61803, posted 06-03-2013 3:24 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 234 of 1324 (700559)
06-04-2013 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by GDR
06-03-2013 3:50 PM


GDR writes:
So rather than Paul’s own account as well as Luke’s you choose to propose 20th century fiction.
When choosing between Paul's fictional account and Kazantzakis' fictional account, I go with the fact that Kazantzakis had a lot more historical information available to him. Whether he used it or not I don't know but yes, he did have the potential for a more authentic fictional account.
GDR writes:
They were the experts and they declared Him dead. So now you have a badly beaten man, erroneously declared dead, moving a heavy stone away from the tomb that was being guarded by Roman soldiers. Maybe you do believe in the tooth fairy after all.
You're embellishing.
  1. There were no experts. He was "dead" enough to bury - i.e. the fun had gone out of the crucifixion - and that was all they cared about.
  2. He was scourged and hit with a stick. I know that Christians like to emphasize his suffering but there's nothing in the gospel accounts to suggest that he was near death.
  3. Since Jesus had help to get into the tomb, he could also have had help to get out.
  4. The guards seem to have disappeared as well as Jesus' body.
  5. As I have said, I do give the Tooth Fairy as much credence as the resurrection.
GDR writes:
If you are an eye-witness of Jesus being alive after being dead, and appearing in a room that had been locked you might think that this is more than a scam. The whole account is written in a way that says — I know this sounds strange but this is what happened.
I have had experiences to which my reaction was, "That couldn't have happened - but it did." In those circumstances, I don't jump to the conclusion that the laws of nature have somehow been suspended before my very eyes. I conclude that I didn't really see what I thought I saw.
GDR writes:
Frankly I appreciate your posts because they make me think through just what it is I believe which is always a good thing.
I look at it the same way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by GDR, posted 06-03-2013 3:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 12:34 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 235 of 1324 (700600)
06-04-2013 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by GDR
06-04-2013 10:52 AM


Re: murder versus justice
Oh come on, I very seldom think of anyone as lying, far from "throwing the term around."
In terms of how people have understood the Bible you might consider this. You have no doubt heard numerous sermons on the Prodigal Son. If you had never heard the parable before you would probably think the sermon was about something that really happened.
I doubt it, it reads like a parable, and in the whole context of Jesus' teaching it would be hard to miss that it's a parable, so it would be hard for anyone preaching a sermon on it to make anything else out of it.
The point is that the parable is true in the message conveyed even though the story isn’t historical. The truth is to be found in the Bible without it all having to be literally true.
Huh? I avoid the word "literal" for this very reason, that people have the crazy idea that I must think the parables are reality, which is utter nonsense. One is to read the Bible as it is written and there are many parts that are not historical but parables, teachings, illustrations, etc etc etc. Obviously.
As John tells us, the Word of God which has existed from the beginning was fully incarnate in Jesus, and as Christians it is with Jesus that we should begin instead of deciding that the entire Bible is equal or more accurate than what we see in His life and words.
Trusting in your own narrow idea of Jesus based only on the particular words you ascribe to Him and the descriptions of His life in this world, is where you go wrong. Jesus is God, He is Jehovah God, the entire Bible refers to Him AND was inspired by Him as well. He Himself validated all the books of the OT as scripture by quoting from them.
My point was that better readers of the Bible than you or I for the last twenty centuries have known that we are not under the Law of the Old Testament as you keep insisting we are. You even make US liars for claiming we take the Bible as inerrant since we deny that we are called to "commit genocide" and stone lawbreakers, which you impose on us anyway no matter what we say about it. You don't have to use the term "liar" to call us liars.
Again, we read the Bible in its proper context, and we have the humility to take into account the writings of all the better exegetes of scripture down the centuries instead of relying on our own uneducated impressions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 06-04-2013 10:52 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 1:04 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 236 of 1324 (700610)
06-05-2013 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by ringo
06-04-2013 12:36 PM


ringo writes:
When choosing between Paul's fictional account and Kazantzakis' fictional account, I go with the fact that Kazantzakis had a lot more historical information available to him. Whether he used it or not I don't know but yes, he did have the potential for a more authentic fictional account.
I agree that to understand the whole NT that the historian’s POV is essential. My favourite Christian author, N T Wright is also a first century historian. I also agree that with items like the Dead Sea Scrolls our knowledge of the original language has also increased so our translations are more accurate and as Jesus was a Jew talking to Jews most of the time it is essential to have an understanding of the culture.
Kazantzakis’s was intended as fiction whereas Paul’s writing wasn’t. It is a case of believing it, believing that he believed but was wrong or that he was lying.
ringo writes:
1. There were no experts. He was "dead" enough to bury - i.e. the fun had gone out of the crucifixion - and that was all they cared about.
2. He was scourged and hit with a stick. I know that Christians like to emphasize his suffering but there's nothing in the gospel accounts to suggest that he was near death.
3. Since Jesus had help to get into the tomb, he could also have had help to get out.
4. The guards seem to have disappeared as well as Jesus' body.
5. As I have said, I do give the Tooth Fairy as much credence as the resurrection.
If you start with the premise that the resurrection is impossible then of course any explanation is better than what we see in the Gospels. If however you start from a theistic position then the resurrection, IMHO, is the most reasonable scenario. Here is a good book debating that very issue. Borg & Wright
ringo writes:
I have had experiences to which my reaction was, "That couldn't have happened - but it did." In those circumstances, I don't jump to the conclusion that the laws of nature have somehow been suspended before my very eyes. I conclude that I didn't really see what I thought I saw.
.....and you were probably right — but maybe not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 06-04-2013 12:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 06-05-2013 12:17 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 237 of 1324 (700611)
06-05-2013 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
06-04-2013 10:28 PM


Re: murder versus justice
Faith writes:
Oh come on, I very seldom think of anyone as lying, far from "throwing the term around."
Frankly being told I’m a liar is more than just a little insulting. If you don’t mean it then don’t say it would be my suggestion.
GDR writes:
The point is that the parable is true in the message conveyed even though the story isn’t historical. The truth is to be found in the Bible without it all having to be literally true.
Faith writes:
Huh? I avoid the word "literal" for this very reason, that people have the crazy idea that I must think the parables are reality, which is utter nonsense. One is to read the Bible as it is written and there are many parts that are not historical but parables, teachings, illustrations, etc etc etc. Obviously.
I wasn’t suggesting that you don’t understand what a parable is. My point is that I have not only heard sermons but have read whole books on the "Prodigal Son", where it is never mentioned that The Prodigal Son is a parable. It is simply assumed that is the case and everyone is fully aware of it. However, because of what there is that can be learned from the parable it is talked about as if it had really happened.
All I’m saying is that when we read what people had to say 2000 years ago and they refer to stories from their scriptures it does not necessarily mean that they believed that the story they are quoting from was an actual historical event.
Faith writes:
Trusting in your own narrow idea of Jesus based only on the particular words you ascribe to Him, is where you go wrong. Jesus is God, He is Jehovah God, the entire Bible refers to Him AND was inspired by Him as well. He Himself validated all the books o f the OT as scripture by quoting from them.
My point was that better readers of the Bible than you or I for the last twenty centuries have known that we are not under the Law of the Old Testament as you keep insisting we are. You even make US liars for claiming we take the Bible as inerrant since we deny that we are called to "commit genocide" and stone lawbreakers, which you impose on us anyway no matter what we say about it. You don't have to use the term "liar" to call us liars.
First off I have shelves of books from a wide variety of Christian writers that I have read. I have delved into this pretty deeply without actually going to a seminary.
I am fully aware that fundamentalists don’t support either genocide or public stoning. However, the OT does have God commanding both. If you are going to see the Bible as inerrant then you need a rationale why God called for it then, but doesn’t now. In many parts of the world the situation isn’t really any different now than it was then. There are Christian parts of the world that are very much under attack. I am not calling you a liar. I am simply saying that your understanding of scripture isn’t consistent. Suggesting that you are wrong is not calling you a liar. You are merely expressing your beliefs as am I.
Faith writes:
Again, we read the Bible in its proper context, and we have the humility to take into account the writings of all the better exegetes of scripture down the centuries instead of relying on our own uneducated impressions.
Again, I did not come to my conclusions on my own, and I have formed my conclusions by reading writers with a wide variety of views including the views that you hold. I remember having a discussion with you about C S Lewis where you had been a fan until I showed you some quotes of his which you immediately dismissed as they didn’t agree with your views. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have the impression that the only exegetes that you read are the ones that hold your views.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 06-04-2013 10:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 06-05-2013 2:03 AM GDR has replied
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 06-05-2013 5:19 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 238 of 1324 (700612)
06-05-2013 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by GDR
06-05-2013 1:04 AM


Re: murder versus justice
I have NEVER read anything that could lead me not to recognize the Prodigal Son as anything but a parable. Whether yesterday or 2000 years ago there is usually no problem telling the difference between what is being presented as history versus hypothetical situation or story. The idea just seems trumped up to me.
If you are going to see the Bible as inerrant then you need a rationale why God called for it then, but doesn’t now.
Many here have explained this many times to deaf ears, including myself, although to spell it out in proper detail would require a book.
God had dealings with ancient Israel that were unique to that relationship. He gave them commands to execute His judgments that applied only to them. He never addressed any of that to anyone beyond His own covenant people ancient Israel. They were His special instruments, and the whole point was to demonstrate the severity of His judgments against sin, how He works in this world and so on. That's what WE are to learn from those events.
We believe it was the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who appeared to Joshua in Person as the Commander of the armies of God. He explicitly did not say He was fighting for Israel but since Israel was to take commands from God obviously those were HIS commands. Yes, those "genocidal" commands.
When Jesus came in the flesh everything changed, at least how we are to think about it or interpret it changed. He fulfilled the Law in His own Person, by perfect obedience in His own earthly life, and particularly on our behalf when He died for us, so the Law no longer rules over us.
At the very least Israel was a theocracy, Christianity is not, or could only be said to be that in a very different sense, not an earthly sense as we are not a nation of this world but an otherworldly "nation" as it were if that's even the right word.
Then there is the fact that a great deal of the ceremonial practices are now revealed to have been foreshadowings or Types or Symbols of the Messiah who has now come. All of it pointed to Christ in one way or another. He FULFILLED it all, He did not abolish any of it.
Those commands you call "genocide" were very specific particular singular incidents in the history of Israel, they were not in any way embodied in Law or commandments.
The stoning of lawbreakers on the other hand WAS embodied in Law, demonstrating again the severity of punishment God judges certain sins to deserve. Nations today SHOULD take those commands seriously as reflecting God's judgments of those sins, and that would mean they'd be incorporated into the laws of the nation in the cultural setting of the time, certainly not something individuals should enact. I imagine Blackstone's Commentary on English law as based on the Bible might be illuminating about how that should be applied, and it's possible that it should all be tempered by a Christian mercy since Christ came but I haven't studied any of that. But the bizarre idea that we'd all just willy-nilly spontaneously take up stones against sinners is nonsense.
In many parts of the world the situation isn’t really any different now than it was then.
Not getting your point.
There are Christian parts of the world that are very much under attack.
Not getting your point.
I am not calling you a liar. I am simply saying that your understanding of scripture isn’t consistent. Suggesting that you are wrong is not calling you a liar. You are merely expressing your beliefs as am I.
Fine, I'll take your word for it. But my understanding of scripture IS consistent, as I've been arguing. It is your own lack of understanding of how it all fits together that creates the problems.
Faith writes:
Again, we read the Bible in its proper context, and we have the humility to take into account the writings of all the better exegetes of scripture down the centuries instead of relying on our own uneducated impressions.
Again, I did not come to my conclusions on my own, and I have formed my conclusions by reading writers with a wide variety of views including the views that you hold. I remember having a discussion with you about C S Lewis where you had been a fan until I showed you some quotes of his which you immediately dismissed as they didn’t agree with your views.
I don't remember that but I read Lewis as a very new believer and had no real critical perspective on him. I have more recently run across discussions of him and quotes from him that make it clear that he should not be embraced by a Bible believer. He had many good things to say, but unfortunately on some essentials he misled Christians. In fact I've wanted to make him the subject of a post on my blog for some time now, warning against his influence; I just don't get around to my various projects as soon as I'd like to.
So if I dismissed quotes you gave from him it was because I recognized that they contradict the truth, though apparently at that time I didn't know how to put it all together.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have the impression that the only exegetes that you read are the ones that hold your views.
I read whatever came to hand as I was learning the faith as a new Christian and that included all kinds of heretics, apostates and cults. It took time to develop the discrimination to know the true from the false but I believe God led me to a pretty good discernment over time. I'm still learning of course. In the last year in fact I've been staggered by revelations of errors I'd been accepting as truth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 1:04 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 2:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 243 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2013 1:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 239 of 1324 (700618)
06-05-2013 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by GDR
06-05-2013 1:04 AM


Your inadequate version of Jesus
Just thought I'd add some New Testament references that contradict your view of Jesus:
From Paul, Jesus in flaming fire taking vengeance:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
From John, the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
From Jesus: How can you escape Hell?
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 1:04 AM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 1324 (700643)
06-05-2013 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by GDR
06-05-2013 12:34 AM


GDR writes:
Kazantzakis’s was intended as fiction whereas Paul’s writing wasn’t. It is a case of believing it, believing that he believed but was wrong or that he was lying.
Fiction isn't "lying" nor is it "wrong". If you and the young-earth creationists had more respect for fiction, you'd have a better understanding of the Bible.
There has always been a fine line between fiction and non-fiction. Fiction is often presented as an eyewitness account. There is no particular reason to think that the New Testament was "intended" as something significantly different from Robinson Crusoe or Kidnapped. (If anything, the New Testament is more like propaganda, which is closer to intentional deception than fiction is.)
GDR writes:
If you start with the premise that the resurrection is impossible then of course any explanation is better than what we see in the Gospels.
The premise doesn't just come out of thin air. Like all good assumptions, it's the conclusion of previous investigation and reasoning. Unless we know that a resurrection is possible, it is improper to use resurrection as a premise.
GDR writes:
If however you start from a theistic position then the resurrection, IMHO, is the most reasonable scenario.
The same argument would apply to a young earth, the Flood, etc. Why are the accounts in the Old Testament less reliable than the accounts in the New Testament?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 06-05-2013 12:34 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 06-06-2013 10:03 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024