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Author | Topic: My Beliefs- GDR | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: IMHO it is very clear that the Gospel writers believed what they wrote.ringo writes: Why does their belief have to be literally true? And why isn't it clear that the Old Testament writers believed what they wrote? I see it this way. In many cases in the OT there what was written was an historical account where there was a specific political agenda at work, such as in Kings. In other cases it was a case of people, who may or may not have believed what they wrote but their understanding of God was through revelation filtered through their personal and cultural biases. In the case of the NT they were being spoken to through a flesh and blood human being in Jesus who had His message confirmed as being directly from God as confirmed by His resurrection. That again does not mean that they got it all recorded perfectly but when it is read as a whole the message is clear and straight forward, and the one ting that it is clear that it all hangs on is the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
Faith writes: It also depends on what "essence" means. The essence of Robinson Crusoe isn't that the character Robinson Crusoe actually existed. Why does the essence of the gospel have to be that Jesus existed? Why can't the essence of Genesis be that the world is 6000 years old? There was never any claim that Robinson Crusoe was anything but fiction and nobody ever based their understanding of life on it. I would say that the essence of Genesis is that we are created beings and that there is a standard of behaviour that we should adhere to.
ringo writes:
I do accept the possibility of theistic beliefs. I also accept the possibility of nuclear fusion as an economical energy supply. I also accept the possibility of Bigfoot. What I don't accept is the reality of any of those things - beause there is no evidence at this time that any of those things exist. If evidence for any of them is discovered, I'll be glad to accept them.The problem is that theistic believers tend to define any possible evidence out of existence: "God can not be detected by material means." You're condemning your belief to perpetually be a belief that can never become a fact. There are any number of historical events that can't be proven as fact. but we believe them. Beliefs can be factual correct even if they can't be proven.
ringo writes: Resurrection is also verifiable. If it can ignore the laws of nature, so can the flood. How is resurrection verifiabl?. If a world-wide flood had occurred it could be proven by the geological record, even if the laws of nature had been broken to cause it.
ringo writes: The flood account had to originate from eyewitness accounts too (unless it was inspired by God directly into Moses' brain). And eyewitness accounts are known to be the least reliable form of evidence. Why are eyewitness accounts the least reliable. Sure you can have people argue about the details of an accident but they will all agree that an accident happened. There probably is some basis of truth to the flood stories that as you know is in other ancient writings and it grew from there. We all have our beliefs. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: There's also the blatant plagiarism. The story of "Jesus" mimics the same story of a number of other gods. Out of curiosity can you give me an example of where the resurrection in a new bodily form of Jesus would have been plagiarized from? He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: Resurrections have a long history, especially in Egyptian mythology. The earliest that I've read about (there might be earlier one's) is Osiris pre-dating the story of Jesus by more than 2500 years. Here is that quote in a broader context. It is clear that what they refer to as resurrection here quite different. From one thing it is essentially an unearthly event involving the gods. Also it is a renewal of life in the same form as before. In Jesus we see a new kind of resurrection where His life form is similar and yet not so similar to what was before.
quote: onifre writes: Being that the Hebrews were the slaves of the Egyptians, one can see where the source of resurrections may have come from. Certainly many but not all of the early Jews had a belief in resurrection but it was going to be for them at the end of time when they would all be resurrected simultaneously. Here is what N T Wright says about the idea of resurrection at that time.
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: Yes, Christian mythology does change the details a bit. But it's a resurrection nonetheless. They had, what, over 2500 years and loads of other resurrection stories to come up with their own? Does that some how save it for you or make it unique? Here is a quote that I used earlier from the book "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright.
quote: My view is that God reached out to us through our hearts, minds and imaginations. The idea that there had been a foreshadowing of the idea of resurrection in other cultures is what I would expect to be the case. There is a foreshadowing of Christ in the OT. The OT laws are a foreshadowing of the law of love as we see it in the teachings of Christ. Jesus says that by the God's Spirit we will be led in truth and so it seems to me that as the centuries roll by we should continue to gain a more focused view of God. People continue to pour over the words of Jesus as we see them in the Gospels and we have individually discern what the truth of it all is. I think that Faith for example twists the Gospel message to fit her specific beliefs, but then she accuses me of exactly the same thing. It doesn't show that either of us is wrong, but if God does exist it is evidence that we do require discernment and my contention that it isn't a discernment applied strictly by reason but more importantly by the heart.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Thanks for that quote from Wright. A raving heretic if there ever was one. Yikes. I really have to wonder if you actually read the quote. What did he say that was heretical ? He gave the historical background to belief about resurrection pre-Jesus and then in the last paragraph essentially stated that the Christian hope came from the bodily resurrection of Jesus.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
OK. I had earlier quoted N T Wright, (post 273) who is often quoted by Christianity Today and is considered one of the top, if the not the finest Christian scholar and first century historian we have today. I assumed that is who you were referring to.
The quote that you used was Robert Wright (post 283) and I used him as an example of a secular writer, who makes no claim to be a Christian and who showed historically that our understanding of the nature of God continues to become more focused, whether or not God actually exists. My point was if that is the case and if God does exist we should expect there to be foreshadowing of the resurrection in the mythologies of humans.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. What I am saying is that neither of you knows which one is right or wrong - if any of you is even right at all. You're both placing faith on a group of people who you believe are right. There is no right or wrong. I know you wrote this to Faith but I'd like to respond. On one level I don't know that I'm right but on another level I am convinced that I have a grasp of of a truth that is more than just what we directly perceive. I'm sure some of the things I believe are wrong, but just as I don't believe the Bible to be inerrant I don't believe that my own beliefs are inerrant. There is ambiguity which is what we should expect if we are truly creatures with free will in an indeterminate world. Much of what is fundamental to what I believe is apart from Christianity. Most of us would believe that treating others as you would like to be treated yourself is a good way to live. The one key issue with Christianity is the basic question which asks whether Jesus is dead or alive. The Christian faith hangs completely on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I can't prove it although I still contend that the best explanation for the rise of the early church is that the resurrection is an historical fact. In the end though it is about faith.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: And, last thought, although what he says about resurrection being unique to Jewish religion and therefore to Christianity, is true, I have to ask what he says about Christ's death for our sins. That's the part you keep refusing to accept so does N T Wright also reject it? I'm quite happy to agree that Christ died for the sins of the world. It's sorting out just exactly what that means that is not so easy. As far as Wright is concerned here is a web site with numerous lectures and interviews of his.
N T WrightHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: I don't doubt that you've found a way to be content with that analysis. Although history has detailed the rise of the RCC at the time, and it was about 200 years after the death of Jesus - if in fact the story of Jesus is real. The church's rise had nothing to do with a supposed miracle that happened two centuries before. It is well cataloged how it came to power, and it was by the sword not the resurrection. By early church I meant the first century after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In that period it was spread by anything but the sword. It was later on when Christianity became more mainstream that people perverted the Christian message and used it as a route to power and influence. Here is the wiki account of Early Christianity.
GDR writes: In the end though it is about faith. onifre writes: But in nothing more than a collection of men who wrote stories - and stories that were not unique and came down from the ages. To a large degree that is true. In one sense the Bible is one book. It is a narrative of the story of God as understood by individuals at various points of human history. Here is a quote from C S Lewis.
quote: I go back to Robert Wright’s book that I quoted earlier to you, written from his secular perspective that our view of the nature of God has continued to evolve over the centuries. I agree that the Bible is both personally and culturally conditioned by each of its many authors. In the Torah we get a largely authoritarian legalistic view of the nature of God. By the time we get to Isaiah we get a more loving God and the view that the one who will be anointed by Him will be a suffering servant. If we just have the OT I agree that if read as Faith understands it we can understand God to be tyrannical but also woven through the accounts we can get a picture of God that is loving and forgiving. God speaks through the hearts and minds of humans but that view is often out of focus. Then we come to Jesus who essentially says that He is speaking on God’s behalf. As John puts it in his Gospel, Jesus embodied the Word of God that has existed from the beginning of time. We are again dependent on men to accurately record what Jesus said and did. However if we agree that they didn’t record all of that perfectly we still have a clear picture of God’s nature of being one of love, mercy, forgiveness and justice and that he wants us to reflect His nature to the world. When we read through the Gospels we can clearly see that this was all fine with His followers except that they still expected that at the end of the day that following Jesus as the messiah would be the route to power and glory. We see that He tried to tell them that this wasn’t how it worked but they had their own ideas of what a messiah would do. A messiah was supposed to rebuild the Temple and rule as King and we can see that His followers thought they were getting in on the ground floor. Of course when Jesus was crucified that all came crashing down and their chief concern was to avoid suffering the same fate as Jesus had. I think that it is pretty obvious that if they were making the whole thing up they would hardly have put together an account that showed the disciples in such a bad light. However, it is IMHO pretty clear that something noteworthy happened that turned the whole thing around so that rather than being fearful they went out proclaiming that Christ had been resurrected. In the Epistles we see Paul and others doing their theological best to understand what Jesus’ teaching, as vindicated by His resurrection, meant in light of the Jewish story and specifically for Paul in light of his background as a Pharisee. So yes, I am largely dependent on the Biblical authors and I am also largely dependent on those who have continued since then to put together a coherent account of what God is doing and where we fit into that narrative. No one does it perfectly but the one thing that seems clear is that the God that I worship is a God who genuinely cares for all mankind and for all of creation for that matter. In addition I believe that we are called to reflect that care into the world. The resurrection of Jesus, which I believe is historical as per the NT accounts, confirms that view of God and at the same time tells us that we are part of a bigger plan that will see the resurrection of all creation at the end of time.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: How can you be conviced you have a grasp on the truth? Sorry I finished that last post and realized that I hadn't answered this question. I am actually convinced of the fundamental truth of my beliefs while at the same time knowing that there are aspects of what I believe that I'm not going to have right. The problem is of course I don't know which parts of what I believe are wrong. I don't know that I am right in the same way I know the sky is blue but I do know that what I believe makes sense to me of the world that I experience. It is also more than just that however. The fundamental Christian message rings true in my heart and through my experiences of life. The truth is always the truth whether there is clear objective evidence or not. We all believe something about why we're here and what if any meaning there is to our lives, and none of us can be sure that we have it right. Neither one of us can be sure about whether I am right or wrong and we are all just searching for that somewhat elusive truth. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: I'll go bonkers if I have to try to find relevant passages in that morass of theological ponderings by Wright. I already slogged through one section on Justification. PLEASE, if you know what he said or where to find it point me to it. What does he say about Jesus' death to pay for the sins of believers, the blood of Christ, being born again etc. The trouble is Faith, Wright doesn't speak in short sound bites. The questions you ask aren't just a matter of ticking off the right boxes to determine whether someone is a heretic tor not. The questions are actually complex and require a complex answer as everyone has their own idea of what exactly the questions mean in the first place. Here is one quote that maybe will help you.
quote: It is from this sermon: Easter Sermon by N T WrightHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: All of today's evangelicals who haven't gone liberal, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, John and Charles Wesley, all the Puritans such as John Owen, Thomas Watson, Richard Baxter and many others; A W Pink, A W Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill. John MacArthur, R C Sproul, John Piper, Alister Begg, Alistair Grath,.... I was interested in this list of yours. I just finished a book by MacArthur and your views would align with his whereas I have considerable difficulty with his approach. I was interested though that you listed Alister McGrath. I have read several of his books and I wondered why you included him. McGrathe is not a fundamentalist. Here is a video on Genesis that he is part of which does not hold to your way of understanding the creation story in Genesis.
Science and GenesisHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: Not in my experience. I hear a LOT of sermons, sometimes three or four a day because I usually turn on Christian radio while I'm in the kitchen cooking or eating, also listen to daily and weekly internet radio shows with a Christian worldview, and even sermons on select topics from sites like Sermon Audio.com., and all these sources very often repeat this very very basic teaching of the Protestant faith -- Jesus' death in our place to pay for our sins. All the speakers I appreciate agree quite solidly on that point, there is no question whatever about what it means. So if it's a "complex" question requiring a "complex" answer to you that can only be because you deny the simple obvious traditional orthodox meaning of it, along with whoever you agree with such as N T Wright I suppose. But the whole thing of dying for my sins means what? Didn't He die for the sins of the world, including Tangle, Onifre etc? Also the death and resurrection was about establishing His Kingdom. Remember He told us to pray "the Kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven". Wasn't He resurrected when He was as the opening act of the resurrection of all creation? Once again you simply bring Christianity down to be all about "me" and my salvation. Frankly it is such a shallow view of the Christian faith.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: You've missed a really important difference between the way believers think and the rest of us. We unbelievers do not think that there is a 'why we are here' thing to spend all our Sundays worrying about. We are not searching for an elusive truth - we know that there isn't one. You may not spend a lot of time thinking about it consciously but everyone does think about it at one level or another. Everyone likes to think that they contribute something to the world that gives their life meaning. It might be through their kids, their job their volunteer work etc. In all of these various ways we look to give our life meaning in a way that has lasting relevance.
Tangle writes: I just heard a Buddhist on the radio talking a complete pile of absolute twaddle about Karma. Given what you believe, you'd think it twaddle too. But it was written in his damn book so it was true and there's tens of thousands of writers with an opinion and explanation for it that they can quote. Just like you. I may disagree with what others believe but I wouldn't label it twaddle. When there are large numbers of people who believe something over long periods of time then it is likely based on something real. In the case of Karma one of the aspects of it is that we reap what we sow. If our desires and our actions are based on what is good for others then that goodness will in turn be returned to us. It is essentially saying that a life based on the golden rule will ultimately be positive for the individual which has parallels in Christianity.
Tangle writes: You have to understand that a God that dies for our sins is as utterly absurd as a force that balances good and evil based on our actions in the past and future. They're simply superstitious beliefs attempting to explain away the fundamental unfarenesses and pain of our lives. That is the reason I have trouble just simply saying to Faith that Jesus died for my sins which is really just a way of dumbing down a much greater reality into something that we can put into our mental box and say - OK that's taken care of. I also don't believe that it is all based on our actions. IMHO it is based on what it is that motivates in life. Are we generally selfishly or unselfishly motivated? I don't agree that my faith takes away the pain in life although I would agree that it does help deal with it, but I do believe specifically that it does answer the question of unfairness in this life. I do believe in an ultimate fair and perfect justice. I've used this example before but I'll use it again. Twenty-two years ago a little boy named Michael Dunahee disappeared from a playground near where I live. There has been no trace of him since. Whoever abducted him was never found. There has been no justice for the abductor, for Michael or for the family. Everyone would like to see some justice in this case but it is pretty certain that there won't be any in this life time. However even if the perpetrator had been apprehended we still couldn't have brought about perfect justice. Michael would likely have suffered abuse and death, the family would still be living a life-time of grief and the perpetrator would be in prison for life whether or not he had been abused as a child, had some mental illness or whatever. Most of not all humans yearn for justice in this life and the fact that we have this yearning is an indication that such justice actually exists. Certainly it doesn't prove it but the fact that it is such a deep desire and the fact that we implement justice to the degree that we are able is again an indication that there is something more than just what we can do in this life.
Tangle writes: It weird that these beliefs still have any hold, now that we know the reality of why our lives are limited in the way that they are; but that is the power of myth and the human desire to find a meaning amongst the meaningless. The fact that we can differentiate between meaningful and meaningless is again an indication that there actually is meaning to life IMHO. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
onifre writes: Then you're not talking about a "church"...you speak of the small group that spread it around the poor and lower class, which eventually raised the concern of the government at the time. Communism worked in the same way in Cuba. The point I was making that Christian belief spread rapidly in spite of having never gained any military or political power. It wasn't just the middle class. There were wealthier patrons and Paul himself wouldn't have been considered poor or lower class in Judean society.
onifre writes: Yes, that is my point. Our understanding of the nature of God evolved over time. As God continued to speak through people's hearts, minds and imaginations our understanding of His nature collectively became more focused.
We can't be sure they understood anything. These accounts of the story of god are all quite similar to the stories the Greeks and Egyptians had. So if anything, it's a retelling of the same old stories with different names and a slight different twist. onifre writes: Then how can you be sure of any of it? I can't be sure but I am convinced, just as you can't be sure I'm wrong but you seem convinced that I am.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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