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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 16 of 169 (701072)
06-11-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
06-06-2013 9:04 PM


Re: Who made who?
But most of the gods of the world's tribes have been demons who demand propitiation and sacrifice of their worshipers...
Oh, yeah! Kind of like that unchanging eternal Biblical God was before 33 A.D.!

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-06-2013 9:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(3)
Message 17 of 169 (701307)
06-16-2013 3:50 PM


The Good News
I found this thread interesting, the OP certainly provokes real thought. So, congratulations on that, GIA. As a result, I'm going to use it as a vehicle to promote the straight no-shit Gospel, and we will see who can tolerate it.
The Prosecution
God, being omniscient, omnipotent. privy to the future by predestination or similar means, and allegedly good, went ahead and created us, even though he knew damn well what we were going to do. He did this for his own reasons, which he felt were worth pursuing, and this makes the whole thing worse, not better; because it's premeditated. He doesn't even try to cover it up
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
This makes him primarily responsible for all our sins whatsoever, in the same way that a mafia boss is responsible for the actions of all his subordinates; and puts us in a position to make a deal with the prosecution in which we can be absolved of any crime we confess to in the course of assisting in setting up the real criminal mastermind. Yeah?
The Defense
God pled "No Contest" to these charges in a Roman court having proper jurisdiction almost 2000 years ago, thereby clearing out records permanently. He was duly sentenced, executed rather brutally by a combination of flaying, impaling, and poisoning, and has been dead ever since. He died for our sins.
He occasionally appears as a Ghost, usually to disciples who have been drinking wine in hidden rooms for days, marching in hot sunlight, or eating mushrooms on abandoned islands. When he does arrive, he uniformly supports this doctrine, that all your sins are forgiven and you can fucking stop bothering him about them.
Go on about your business, mankind; there's nothing more to see here.

Heathen writes:
Damn! is there a railing somewhere i can leave flowers/tie a teddybear to?
Edited by Iblis, : god is dead / he died for you / you should be glad / you will be too

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 169 (701331)
06-17-2013 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Heathen
06-05-2013 7:36 AM


Perspective
Heathen writes:
So, God, the eternal, all powerful, superbeing, sacrificed his earthly avatar (Jesus), who had to quit his transient, earthly existence to return to heaven to continue to live for all eternity.
"Sacrifice"? doesn't sound like it.
"die"? ummm... nope.
It would be sacrificial to have to experience the human pain. You seem to imagine the event from a God perspective, which is impossible for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 06-05-2013 7:36 AM Heathen has replied

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 19 of 169 (701337)
06-17-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:05 AM


Re: Perspective
Well of course I'm trying to imagine it from a god perspective..
How else do I determine whether or not what is alleged to have happened might affect a god?
Incidentally you are doing the same by claiming that to suffer human frailty would be sacrificial for god.
My point stands though, for an eternal all powerful being, 30-odd years is a negligible timeframe to experience pain. no, or negligible sacrifice involved and certainly not death in any meaningful sense.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 20 of 169 (701345)
06-17-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
05-31-2013 1:09 PM


Just wamted to respond
Greatest I am writes:
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
I think it certainly can be. But it doesn't have to be.
If God actually did die for us (let's just there is incontrovertible evidence for this conclusion)... then it's not egotistical to think that He did... it's just acknowledging reality.
People who believe in the barbaric human blood sacrifice of the Triune Jesus/God must believe that the greatest force ever to exist decided that humans, lowly creations whom we are told are infinitely inferior to God, are somehow more important than God’s own life and that he would give it up for believers.
Seems like a logical conclusion.
But not all people are logical, or willing to follow such thought through.
And some do, but just think "there's something else to it" that we don't know about in a "God's ways are mysterious" sort of deal.
How is placing your own life above Triune Jesus/God’s showing a humble character as you think that he would die for you? That is taking self-pride to the maximum.
I agree that what you describe is not humble.
I don't think that many believers think that this situation describes them, though. I don't think they would agree that they "place their own life above God's" in any manner.
Maybe they just don't follow your logic, or maybe they think there are other factors involved that you haven't accounted for.
I'm just guessing...
Yet Christians who think they are moral will believe that God would do such a despicable thing as having his son killed even as scriptures say that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and does not believe in asking or accepting a ransom.
I think there's something in scriptures about God killing His son in order to stop all sacrificing... so that it doesn't have to happen anymore.
Personally, if I wanted to stop all sacrificing, I'd just simply stop it... not have one big finale or anything like that.
It's sort of like saying "lets all agree to end capital punishment throughout the world! We'll kill everyone in prison right now, and then there'll be no more need to ever kill again!"
Jesus' death didn't stop people from sacrificing animals or other people. Hell, it still happens today.
It may have stopped "the need for it" (or so they believe)... but "the need for it" could have stopped without killing Jesus anyway.
I don't really get it.
I do, however, fully get it if it's just a made-up story told by people to try and convince other people...
Is thinking that to believe that God would die for you the epitome of an inflated ego?
If not, what could possibly inflate an ego more than that?
I suppose you could think that 10 Gods would die for you...

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 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 05-31-2013 1:09 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 21 of 169 (701450)
06-19-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
05-31-2013 1:09 PM


Here's where I got lost as a kid when I heard it and even today when people repeat it:
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.
So did god die for us or did he send his son to die for us? Are they both gods? How are they one and the same? No one has ever explained that to me in a way that makes sense.
- Oni

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-19-2013 1:34 PM onifre has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 22 of 169 (701453)
06-19-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by onifre
06-19-2013 11:58 AM


No one has ever explained that to me in a way that makes sense.
I'm older than you, I grew up a preacher's kid, and I don't think you need to hold your breath waiting for that to occur. 'Cause it doesn't make sense!

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 169 (701454)
06-19-2013 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by onifre
06-19-2013 11:58 AM


The Trinity
So did god die for us or did he send his son to die for us? Are they both gods? How are they one and the same? No one has ever explained that to me in a way that makes sense.
Well, that's the Trinity, and it is just about impossible for us to wrap our minds around it, so we can't expect it to "make sense" exactly, but it is solidly based on scripture nevertheless. There's a thread on it still more or less alive I think, started by Alter2ego, titled something like Scripture or Traditions of Men?
The Trinity is expressed as "One God in Three Persons," which can't be reduced logically, it simply is what it is. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all One God, and the three together are also referred to as "God." "God" often refers to God the Father alone, as well. So Jesus IS God, He is God the Son, so it's right to say that God died for us; but God the Father sent Him to die for us. So it's right to say it either way.
ABE: Looked it up: The thread is "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men" and in Message 20 I posted a link to a very complete Outline Study of all the scripture verses that add up to the Trinity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Coragyps, posted 06-19-2013 6:37 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by onifre, posted 06-20-2013 2:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 26 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2013 4:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(4)
Message 24 of 169 (701471)
06-19-2013 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
06-19-2013 1:34 PM


Re: The Trinity
...but it is solidly based on scripture nevertheless.
I see. That is, indeed, a big component of why it makes no sense.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-19-2013 1:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 25 of 169 (701480)
06-20-2013 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
06-19-2013 1:34 PM


Re: The Trinity
but God the Father sent Him to die for us.
Yeah here's where it doesn't make sense. Maybe it's like Coragyps says, it makes no sense because it is scripture, or rather just a more current mythology.
The quote above means it's two different people: god sent his son means god is one person and his son is obviously his offspring.
- Oni

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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-19-2013 1:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 26 of 169 (701483)
06-20-2013 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
06-19-2013 1:34 PM


Re: The Trinity
so it's right to say that God died for us; but God the Father sent Him to die for us
So.. is God the son, Jesus, dead? or did he ascend into heaven to sit at the right hand of the father? in which case he is alive?
did he cease to exist at any point? or was he always alive in some eternal otherworldly sense?
If he suffered a bit of a beating, crucifixion, died for 3 days and then came back and continued with his eternal existance, it wasn't really a "death" was it, or much of a sacrifice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-19-2013 1:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-20-2013 5:04 AM Heathen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 169 (701485)
06-20-2013 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Heathen
06-20-2013 4:43 AM


Re: The Trinity
So.. is God the son, Jesus, dead? or did he ascend into heaven to sit at the right hand of the father? in which case he is alive?
God can't die, but Jesus the man died, and then came back to life. He is the first resurrection of a human being from the dead, now at the right hand of the Father, yes, quite alive.
did he cease to exist at any point? or was he always alive in some eternal otherworldly sense?
I did some pretty thorough posts on this subject on that other thread too. The answer is that Jesus was both God AND Man. God can't die but man can. Jesus' divinity never left Him, that's impossible, but He did die as a man. There is another way to describe this as well: From a biblical point of view we are all immortal souls who will live for eternity, but while the soul or spirit will live, the body will die. In Jesus' case His spirit is divine and couldn't die for that reason, and now that He has resurrected He is body and soul complete.
If he suffered a bit of a beating, crucifixion, died for 3 days and then came back and continued with his eternal existance, it wasn't really a "death" was it, or much of a sacrifice.
He was absolutely totally dead, and since the wages of sin is death all sacrifices are intended to pay for sin by death, though Jesus' sacrifice was the only one that actually could pay for sin. How long He was dead isn't of any importance. As scripture says, death couldn't hold Him -- not only because He is God but because a sinless person cannot die either -- He had to take the sins of humanity onto Himself and die FOR those sins. The Roman soldier pierced His side with his spear to determine that for sure and that required test proved He was dead. His greatest suffering was probably being forsaken by the Father, which He suffered for our sake along with everything else. Thanks to Him believers in Him can look forward to being resurrected just as He was, body and soul reunited but in a new form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2013 4:43 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2013 5:37 AM Faith has replied
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 06-20-2013 9:12 AM Faith has replied
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 06-27-2013 12:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 28 of 169 (701486)
06-20-2013 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
06-20-2013 5:04 AM


Re: The Trinity
In Jesus' case His spirit is divine and couldn't die for that
so his earthly "death" was no kind of sacrifice in the grand scheme of things. Seems to me no more than a kid playing a computer game, and their avatar "dies" in the game, but the person/controller does not, they can simply restart as and when required.
He was absolutely totally dead
oh.. wait... so he did die?
He had to take the sins of humanity onto Himself and die FOR those sins
Except as you've said above.. he didn't die.. did he? only his temporary, human host did. god/jesus/whatever remained very much alive, just not on earth.
As scripture says
so scripture is true because scripture says so... don't you ever see the problem with that?
The whole idea of jesus' death being a sacrifice just doesn't wash. (Before we even attempt the logical gymnastics required to explain how this supposed act therefore allows believers entry to the afterlife.)... oh wait.. what's that? My puny mind couldn't understand? so I should just accept scripture as truth? anything else I should just accept?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-20-2013 5:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 06-20-2013 7:31 AM Heathen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 169 (701490)
06-20-2013 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Heathen
06-20-2013 5:37 AM


Re: The Trinity
His HUMAN BODY died, same as ours does. And I was quite clear about that and it's perfectly logical. Your rudeness is over the top.
By the way you are also sounding just like the Jehovah's Witness Alter2ego in dealing with this subject, insisting that Jesus didn't die because God can't die. Maybe you should join the JWs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2013 5:37 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 42 by Heathen, posted 06-25-2013 2:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 169 (701494)
06-20-2013 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
06-20-2013 7:31 AM


Re: The Trinity
While I am certainly not a JW, it is reasonable that a God cannot die. Unless the whole Jesus story is nothing but a farce and a joke then Jesus, while living on earth and from the moment of his birth until after his death was not a god but simply, totally and only human.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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