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Author | Topic: My Beliefs- GDR | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: All of today's evangelicals who haven't gone liberal, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, John and Charles Wesley, all the Puritans such as John Owen, Thomas Watson, Richard Baxter and many others; A W Pink, A W Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill. John MacArthur, R C Sproul, John Piper, Alister Begg, Alistair Grath,.... I was interested in this list of yours. I just finished a book by MacArthur and your views would align with his whereas I have considerable difficulty with his approach. I was interested though that you listed Alister McGrath. I have read several of his books and I wondered why you included him. McGrathe is not a fundamentalist. Here is a video on Genesis that he is part of which does not hold to your way of understanding the creation story in Genesis.
Science and GenesisHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'll take your word for it about McGrath [ABE later: I heard a few minutes of the video, that's enough to see that he isn't in my camp]. I probably got him mixed up with someone else. Sinclair Ferguson comes to mind. Couple of Scots. Another name I'd add to my list is Alan Cairns. Oh and Ronald Cooke. Oh and Duncan Campbell of the big revival on the Isle of Hebrides in the 40s. And Robert Murray McCheyne and Evan Roberts. It may be that others on my list compromise on Genesis but I'm unaware of it. I'd be very surprised in most cases if so however.
John MacArthur may be today's premier spokesman for Bible believers, not that the others on the list, most of them anyway, aren't also solid in that regard, but MacArthur is very popular and very effective. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
NT Wright writes: Our reading from Acts made it quite clear that in the earliest apostolic proclamation about Jesus of Nazareth his death and resurrection were directly linked to two promises, one about the future, and one about the present. These can be simply stated: the resurrection demonstrates that Jesus is the one ordained by God as judge of the living and the dead, and the resurrection demonstrates that he is the one in whose name forgiveness of sins can be had here and now. Now at first sight these two promises may seem somewhat arbitrary, and only somewhat loosely connected to Easter Day itself. But that again only shows how far we are off the mark. Easter Day is the moment when those great Psalms in the middle and late 90s come into their own, all about heaven and earth rejoicing, the sea thundering, the fields and the trees and the animals celebrating for joy, because YHWH is coming to judge the earth, to judge it with true justice and the nations with faithful equity. In other words, Easter is about the whole creation being set right at last, put back on track with the way it was supposed to be, and the way it had been longing to be. According to Paul, echoing Genesis of course, God intended that the created order should be governed by wise human beings reflecting God’s stewardly love into it. With human rebellion, this purpose was thwarted, and the earth brought forth thorns and thistles, not of its own will but because it had been subjected to futility against the day when humankind would be restored. Now, in the person of Jesus Christ, that restoration has happened; there is at last an obedient human being at the helm of the universe; and the heavens and the earth rejoice at the very thought. God’s judgment is the form that his mercy takes, when faced with a world out of joint. From that quote I conclude that he talks the way you talk, in rather vague terms which are sometimes right as far as it goes but leave out some crucial stuff. He's definitely left out the fact that Jesus' DEATH IN OUR PLACE BEARING OUR SINS IN HIS BODY is the reason we have forgiveness of sins, as His death was the fulfillment of all the OT sacrifices for the forgiveness of Israel's sins (see Letter to the Hebrews). So that doesn't seem to be part of Wright's theology nor, no doubt, the orthodox understanding of the new birth either.
The questions are actually complex and require a complex answer as everyone has their own idea of what exactly the questions mean in the first place. Not in my experience. I hear a LOT of sermons, sometimes three or four a day because I usually turn on Christian radio while I'm in the kitchen cooking or eating, also listen to daily and weekly internet radio shows with a Christian worldview, and even sermons on select topics from sites like Sermon Audio.com., and all these sources very often repeat this very very basic teaching of the Protestant faith -- Jesus' death in our place to pay for our sins. All the speakers I appreciate agree quite solidly on that point, there is no question whatever about what it means. So if it's a "complex" question requiring a "complex" answer to you that can only be because you deny the simple obvious traditional orthodox meaning of it, along with whoever you agree with such as N T Wright I suppose. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: We all believe something about why we're here and what if any meaning there is to our lives, and none of us can be sure that we have it right. Neither one of us can be sure about whether I am right or wrong and we are all just searching for that somewhat elusive truth. You've missed a really important difference between the way believers think and the rest of us. We unbelievers do not think that there is a 'why we are here' thing to spend all our Sundays worrying about. We are not searching for an elusive truth - we know that there isn't one. I just heard a Buddhist on the radio talking a complete pile of absolute twaddle about Karma. Given what you believe, you'd think it twaddle too. But it was written in his damn book so it was true and there's tens of thousands of writers with an opinion and explanation for it that they can quote. Just like you. You have to understand that a God that dies for our sins is as utterly absurd as a force that balances good and evil based on our actions in the past and future. They're simply superstitious beliefs attempting to explain away the fundamental unfarenesses and pain of our lives. It weird that these beliefs still have any hold, now that we know the reality of why our lives are limited in the way that they are; but that is the power of myth and the human desire to find a meaning amongst the meaningless.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Such DOGMA you preach!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Such DOGMA you preach! You need to find a more accurate word.
Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Dogma - Wikipedia I'm no authority, not part of an ideology nor are my views unchangeable.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh. Logic chopping and hair splitting are great sport around here.
I thought you'd just get my point: You SOUND awfully CERTAIN although you aren't in any position to be certain. "We know that there isn't one" [elusive truth] You KNOW this you say. Pretty dogmatic there in the sense I meant it. and "absolute twaddle" is an awfully ABSOLUTE term. "They're simply superstitious beliefs attempting to explain away the fundamental unfarenesses and pain of our lives." I don't see any tentativeness in this statement, this is just "simply" the case. "It weird that these beliefs still have any hold, now that we know the reality of why our lives are limited in the way that they are;" You KNOW this you say. "but that is the power of myth and the human desire to find a meaning amongst the meaningless." You are even sure of other people's motives.) Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes:
Sigh. Logic chopping and hair splitting are great sport around here. Yes, we require a bit of discipline before posting twaddle otherwise people can say anything - words have meanings.
I thought you'd just get my point: You SOUND awfully CERTAIN although you aren't in any position to be certain. I am certain - there is absolutely no evidence for any God of any denomination and human kind's attempts to claim them have all proven to be badly wrong. The same applies to pixies, ghosts, trolls, goblins, spiritual healing, crystals, hexes, luck, dowsing and all the other superstitious and delusional bullshit that we've been fed by charlatans for centuries. I require evidence before I'm prepared to believe important stuff. But I'll change my mind in a second if any actual evidence can be presented for any of it.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Of course all THAT is a bunch of sophomoric pedantic pontification too, but oh well.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Of course all THAT is a bunch of sophomoric pedantic pontification too, but oh well. Oh well indeed. The thing is, the stuff I believe can be evidenced, the stuff you believe can't be. Even worse, because of your un-evidenced beliefs you have to reject facts about our world that we know to be true. It can only get worse for you Faith, as we discover more, you'll have to reject more. You'll never change your mind, but the generations behind you are rejecting the superstitions of the past and even the traditional organised religions are having to incorporate the new knowledge into their beliefs. (Which is why you can't agree even with other Christians.)Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But that's the point, NOTHING you said can be evidenced, it's all BELIEF.
And as a matter of fact there's tons of evidence for my beliefs, it's just that it doesn't convince you. The miracles described in the scripture for instance. The fulfilled prophecies. (No other religion has genuine miracles OR prophecy). You simply choose not to believe them. But they are evidence and were given as evidence because God knows we need evidence. Too bad that you believe you are "discovering" things and don't see that it's all really just BELIEF. Golly gee, you even say I don't agree with other Christians although I've given some pretty long lists of those I do agree with and the ones I don't agree with are the ones who cave in under pressure from bogus claims for science. Sad really. But I DO agree with you that it's only likely to get worse for me because of the power of the delusion I'm up against. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
What is it that you think I believe in without evidence?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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onifre Member (Idle past 2976 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I've not merely said that I believe it, I've also said that I find the testimony to be believable and honest. This all means the same thing - you've place your faith in the authors of the Bible. But how can you know they were being honest? How do you know they were truly inspired by god? Fact is you can't know that. You MUST take it on faith that these men were being honest.
That's one of the reasons I trust the Bible, but I also trust it because I know the nature of God and how and why God inspired it. How do you know that?
My FAITH is in the "things unseen" that scripture teaches, things we can't know through our own abilities. Again, your faith lies in what men wrote. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2976 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
By early church I meant the first century after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Then you're not talking about a "church"...you speak of the small group that spread it around the poor and lower class, which eventually raised the concern of the government at the time. Communism worked in the same way in Cuba. But from the creation of the first Roman Catholic Church - the first church - it has been spread by the sword.
It is a narrative of the story of God as understood by individuals at various points of human history. We can't be sure they understood anything. These accounts of the story of god are all quite similar to the stories the Greeks and Egyptians had. So if anything, it's a retelling of the same old stories with different names and a slight different twist.
So yes, I am largely dependent on the Biblical authors Then how can you be sure of any of it? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2976 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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The problem is of course I don't know which parts of what I believe are wrong. Why do you "believe" anything at all? Why not only accept those things that are evidenced?
The fundamental Christian message rings true in my heart and through my experiences of life. I don't know what that message is, because it means so many different things to so many different Christians. Do un to others? Is that the fundamental message? Because you could have just said the fundamental message of Buddism, or Islam, or Hindu. The mesaage is probably nothing unique to Christianity.
We all believe something about why we're here and what if any meaning there is to our lives, and none of us can be sure that we have it right. I get that, but believeing from the perspective of your own personal experience is one thing. Placing belief in a bunch of authors from 1000's of years ago and in a book that lifted most of it's stories from other stories is not the same thing. - Oni
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