Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8936 total)
22 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, Tanypteryx (3 members, 19 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume: Total: 861,614 Year: 16,650/19,786 Month: 775/2,598 Week: 21/251 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16099
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 31 of 2241 (700255)
05-31-2013 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 10:12 PM


Re: your choice
There are two, and only two, explanations for the means whereby life now exists on this planet.
First, there is the explanation that life on earth was divinely created.
Since, obviously, there is no way that the above explanation of the origin of life can be subjected to any scientific analysis, it would be profitless to discuss its merits (at this point).
The other means I am referring to is, of course, the theory of evolution. By evolution, I mean the process or processes whereby life as we now know it has come about from an originally inorganic universe through purely mechanistic actions in conformity with the laws of the physical universe.

Only that is not what "the theory of evolution" actually means.

"The theory of evolution" is a theory about what happens to life when it exists. By definition, it is not a theory about how life came to exist in the first place.

You seem to me like a nice guy, but a lot of the things that you post here could have used a little more research.

It is my contention that the inevitable and ultimate result of evolution is this: that somewhere, sooner or later, an entity would be evolved through either natural or artificial means which would no longer be subject to time.

Well, why?

I mean, I believe in evolution as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I believe that it must create a being (for example) exempt from gravity. On the contrary, I am absolutely certain that evolution will never produce an organism exempt from the laws of physics. The theory of evolution doesn't mean that any darn thing can happen. On the contrary, the theory of evolution, like any other scientific theory, places limits on what can happen. This is one of them. The theory does not imply that some being should evolve that is exempt from physics, instead it implies that this will never happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 10:12 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 2241 (701248)
06-14-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
05-31-2013 10:13 AM


Re: Thanks for another reason that the Bible is written by man
They are not smarter.
I seem to make better decisions now that I pray more often, though I cant prove it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 05-31-2013 10:13 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 06-14-2013 12:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 33 of 2241 (701253)
06-14-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
06-14-2013 12:35 PM


No Results
Phat writes:

I seem to make better decisions now that I pray more often, though I cant prove it.

My point isn't that "nothing good happens to believers."
My point is that "nothing better happens to believers when compared to non-believers."

You may very well make better decisions now.
But you don't make decisions better than non-believers as a whole.

And there are non-believers that make better decisions after renouncing prayer and blaspheming the Holy Spirit over and over again.
But they don't make decisions better than believers as a whole.

My point is that there are no significant results in either direction.
This indicates, very strongly, that there's no difference at all between the two groups. The reason there is no difference is because there is no God to make a difference.

If there was a God answering prayers... even if He doesn't answer all prayers, but just some... there would be some slight advantage to praying. But we don't see this.
Praying produces exactly the same results as not-praying or even "counter-praying" (blaspheming).

This can possibly be explained by various things:
"God works in mysterious ways."
"God does not like to be tested."
"The works of God are not like the works of Man."
"God will reward us in the afterlife."
"God actually hates people."
"God actually sends everyone to Hell, believers and unbelievers, because He changed His mind and just doesn't care anymore."
"God is on vacation, He might be back in a few millennia."

Or, it can fully be explained by a very simple explanation:
God does not exist.
The reason there's no difference between believers and non-believers is simply because there is no difference. Because belief in a being that does not exist will never create a difference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2013 12:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 2241 (701332)
06-17-2013 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Stile
06-14-2013 12:59 PM


Re: No Results
Stile writes:

The reason there is no difference is because there is no God to make a difference.

Here you go off on a conclusion, again. Sometimes its the things that one "doesnt" see that make a difference. What ever am I going to do with you, Stile?

If there was a God answering prayers... even if He doesn't answer all prayers, but just some... there would be some slight advantage to praying. But we don't see this.
No...you don't see this. There is no "we" in this argument, concerning a set that includes both you and I.

The Bible is obviously words of men. The question is whether or not these men were inspired from a source of knowledge and insight superior to themselves. I believe that there was. I cannot prove it objectively, however...so "we" cant convince "you" of anything....YET.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 06-14-2013 12:59 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 06-17-2013 10:21 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 36 by Stile, posted 06-17-2013 12:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 06-17-2013 1:30 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6551
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 35 of 2241 (701333)
06-17-2013 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Thugpreacha
06-17-2013 10:11 AM


Re: No Results
No...you don't see this. There is no "we" in this argument, concerning a set that includes both you and I.

It has been proven scientifically and statistically that there is not advantage to prayer. Any advantages seen are coincidental and attempts to make the prayer related no matter the flimsiest of connection.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 36 of 2241 (701339)
06-17-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Thugpreacha
06-17-2013 10:11 AM


Results of the Wolf
Phat writes:

Here you go off on a conclusion, again. Sometimes its the things that one "doesn't" see that make a difference. What ever am I going to do with you, Stile?

I can think of two ways to take your response. I'll respond to both positions, just let me know which one is the one you're talking about:

1 - The difference exists, Phat can see it but Stile can't
Then my response to you is simple... what is this difference?
Can you explain it or identify it in any way whatsoever? You don't even have to use physical evidence. Just describe it the best way you know how.
I haven't heard of anyone even hint at any sort of difference between believers and non-believers that isn't simply personal to them. And everyone has a "difference" that is personal to them, this isn't the kind of result I'm talking about (more on this below).

2 - The difference exists, but no one can see it because that's just the way it is
Then my response is a simple question:
If no one can see it, how does anyone know it's even there?

(I'm assuming that by "see" the difference you mean anything such as feeling it, sensing it or distinguishing it by any means whatsoever).

Lots of people say there's one (like you have here), but they don't want to (or possibly cannot) show it to anyone else.
Reminds me a lot about the story of the boy who cried wolf.
You keep saying "There's a difference! There's a difference!"
But whenever a crowd gathers to actually see what you're talking about, you never seem to move on to the part about actually describing this difference and showing that it is, indeed, impossible to obtain otherwise.

Phat writes:

Stile writes:

If there was a God answering prayers... even if He doesn't answer all prayers, but just some... there would be some slight advantage to praying. But we don't see this.

No... you don't see this. There is no "we" in this argument, concerning a set that includes both you and I.

I think you're bypassing my point again.
I'm not talking about something personal.
I think it's quite possible that Phat may get some benefit from prayer.
In fact, if my mom was sick, I would pray for her because I know that she would get some benefit from that.

This isn't the effect I'm talking about, though.

This here is something personal to you and something similar to my mom.

The thing is... if someone ardently believes that snapping crosses in half and burning Bibles is helpful for their cause... then these actions would also help them in the same way that the praying helps you and my mom.

This is what I mean by "no results" and "no difference."

This can be explained by saying God doesn't care about praying or blaspheming. Or it could be that God just doesn't exist.

But there's lots more than just praying.

Reading the Bible.
Going to church.
Following Jesus.
Being a christian.
Having faith in God.

...all these things have a non-God counterpart that produces the exact same results with no difference.

Maybe God doesn't care about praying.
Maybe God doesn't care about reading the Bible.
Maybe God doesn't care about going to church.
Maybe God doesn't care about following Jesus.
Maybe God doesn't care about being a Christian.
Maybe God doesn't care about having faith in God.

Or, for one statement that covers everything... maybe God just doesn't exist.
It does seem much simpler.

The act of praying or having faith for believers just doesn't provide a difference in comparison to things like wishing or stubbornness for non-believers.

This points us towards the fact that there's nothing special about praying or having faith or wishing or stubbornness. They are all personal-constructs for personal growth. It doesn't matter what the personal-construct is or if it has any quantifiable "powers", what matters is that the personal construct connects personally with the individual using the tool.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 37 of 2241 (701346)
06-17-2013 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Thugpreacha
06-17-2013 10:11 AM


Re: No Results
Phat writes:

The Bible is obviously words of men. The question is whether or not these men were inspired from a source of knowledge and insight superior to themselves.


Actually, there are two separate questons: "Were they inspired by some outside source?" and if so, "Did that source have knowledge and insight superior to themselves?"

It's clear that the Bible is not inerrant, so either the inspiration was faulty or the message itself was faulty. Either way, the problem appears to be at the source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 38 of 2241 (701427)
06-18-2013 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
06-17-2013 1:30 PM


Re: No Results
ringo writes:

Actually, there are two separate questons: "Were they inspired by some outside source?" and if so, "Did that source have knowledge and insight superior to themselves?"
It's clear that the Bible is not inerrant, so either the inspiration was faulty or the message itself was faulty. Either way, the problem appears to be at the source.

It depends what you mean by inspired. There have been many people through the years who have been inspired to acts of sacrifice for the benefit of others, who have created beautiful prose or poetry, or have created beautiful music who were inspired presumably by God but we don't think that what they did or created was done perfectly.

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 06-17-2013 1:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 06-20-2013 12:00 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2013 2:14 PM GDR has responded
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 6:57 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 39 of 2241 (701519)
06-20-2013 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
06-18-2013 10:30 PM


GDR writes:

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.


It's pretty simple, isn't it? If it goes well, you give God the credit. If it goes badly, you give people the blame. It's a flawless copout.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(5)
Message 40 of 2241 (701530)
06-20-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
06-18-2013 10:30 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.

Heads you win, tails I lose - again.

Why can't we get a coherant narrative with God by having a coherant narrative with God? It would make more sense. Why make it so bloody obscure? It's supposed to be the most important message ever delivered to mankind, you'd expect a god to make it a bit easier to actually understand and believe.

On the other hand, if it was all made up by a few superstitious iron age desert living primitives, carried on by verbal tradition then exploited by emperors and politicians - it would look exactly like it does.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 7:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 41 of 2241 (701540)
06-20-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
06-18-2013 10:30 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.

ringo writes:

It's pretty simple, isn't it? If it goes well, you give God the credit. If it goes badly, you give people the blame. It's a flawless copout.

I’m not trying to be an apologist for God. I’m simply trying to work out what I believe is the truth. It was people who crucified Jesus and if Jesus was resurrected then it was God who resurrected Him. As I said, Jesus knew what happened to those who went up against those with the power and believed that what He was doing was important enough that He went ahead with the faith that what He was doing was worth the consequences. God redeemed it and in doing so vindicated the life and teaching of Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-21-2013 12:32 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 42 of 2241 (701541)
06-20-2013 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
06-20-2013 2:14 PM


Re: No Results
Tangle writes:

Why can't we get a coherant narrative with God by having a coherant narrative with God? It would make more sense. Why make it so bloody obscure? It's supposed to be the most important message ever delivered to mankind, you'd expect a god to make it a bit easier to actually understand and believe.

It isn't that obscure. Read my signature. It's pretty simple. In the resurrection of Jesus we see God confirming that the simple requirement is that we care for others as we would like them to care for us as part of our nature, that we should act in concert with others in taking that love and care to the world. The resurrection is also a pointer ahead to what God plans for all of creation at the end of time.

What you seem to be looking for is an iron clad guarantee of good things ahead if you behave in the proper manner or believe the right stuff. If that were the case then we could never love freely as we would always know that in the end it was for our own selfish benefit.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2013 2:14 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 4:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Ossat
Member (Idle past 736 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 43 of 2241 (701562)
06-21-2013 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Panda
05-30-2013 5:40 PM


Worship him or burn in hell for eternity.

Can you quote that one from the Bible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 5:40 PM Panda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Larni, posted 06-21-2013 1:01 PM Ossat has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 44 of 2241 (701565)
06-21-2013 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
06-20-2013 7:05 PM


Re: No Results
qs writes:


What you seem to be looking for is an iron clad guarantee of good things ahead if you behave in the proper manner or believe the right stuff. If that were the case then we could never love freely as we would always know that in the end it was for our own selfish benefit.

No I don't. I don't give a stuff about 'good things ahead.' I don't need them or want them.

I'm simply saying that if this God actually existed and if he needed to give a message to the world, sending his son to earth to die for us then not leaving a scrap of evidence that it actually happened is simply not credible.

It's also perfectly stupid thing to do - a schoolchild could think up dozens of better methods of getting what is apparently a critical message to us.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 7:05 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 5:03 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 06-21-2013 5:08 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 736 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 45 of 2241 (701568)
06-21-2013 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
06-21-2013 4:16 AM


Re: No Results
No I don't. I don't give a stuff about 'good things ahead.' I don't need them or want them.

I'm simply saying that if this God actually existed and if he needed to give a message to the world, sending his son to earth to die for us then not leaving a scrap of evidence that it actually happened is simply not credible.

It's also perfectly stupid thing to do - a schoolchild could think up dozens of better methods of getting what is apparently a critical message to us.

Why does it have to be like that? If God wants to give a message, does he need to accommodate to your or anybody's requirements?

The Bible is hard to understand. I don't know, but maybe God wants people to look for him with all their hearts. You are more likely to appreciate that which is hard to get


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 4:16 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 6:47 AM Ossat has responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019