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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 2241 (701569)
06-21-2013 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
06-21-2013 4:16 AM


Re: No Results
sending his son to earth to die for us then not leaving a scrap of evidence that it actually happened is simply not credible.
Why do you keep saying this? It's obviously false. The Bible is full of evidence of Jesus' death for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 4:16 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2013 9:26 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 47 of 2241 (701570)
06-21-2013 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Ossat
06-21-2013 5:03 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:
Why does it have to be like that? If God wants to give a message, does he need to accommodate to your or anybody's requirements?
Well presumably if God wanted to give us an important message, he'd want to give the message in the best possible way so that everybody can understand it. Why would he do it any other way? Why make it impossible to believe?
The Bible is hard to understand. I don't know, but maybe God wants people to look for him with all their hearts. You are more likely to appreciate that which is hard to get
The bible is very easy to understand. It was written for primitive, simple people in a story telling manner. It's only hard to understand when modern people are trying to make it fit into their reality - they know it doesn't work so they have to dissemble and contrive a fit.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 5:03 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 7:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 48 of 2241 (701571)
06-21-2013 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Tangle
06-21-2013 6:47 AM


Re: No Results
Well presumably if God wanted to give us an important message, he'd want to give the message in the best possible way so that everybody can understand it. Why would he do it any other way? Why make it impossible to believe?
Who says the best possible way is necessarily the easiest way for all of us to understand? Don’t you feel more proud of yourself when you achieve something that was hard for you? Don’t you value it more? I already answered your question in my last post but I’ll try again, and like I said, I don’t know but maybe we will value more the message if we had to work hard to understand it. It’s not impossible, but is not easy at all
The bible is very easy to understand. It was written for primitive, simple people in a story telling manner. It's only hard to understand when modern people are trying to make it fit into their reality - they know it doesn't work so they have to dissemble and contrive a fit.
I think you are underestimating the Bible. And what makes you think those people were simple? What make us less simple? Technology? Our life is more fancy but we had the advantage of the knowledge accumulated through much more generations. By the way we also have created a lot of problems, haven’t we? What if they were smarter than us? What if they saw things we didn’t? You think the Bible is simple because you look at the surface, but you have to dig deeper to find it’s richness and that takes hard work. You don’t seem to be interested in the Bible, and that’s ok, you don’t have to like it; but if you ever try hard to look for God’s message in it, I’m sure you’ll find it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 6:47 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 8:41 AM Ossat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 49 of 2241 (701572)
06-21-2013 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Ossat
06-21-2013 7:50 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:
Who says the best possible way is necessarily the easiest way for all of us to understand?
Well I'd start with the entire teaching profession, then work outwards.
It's obviously absurd to say that the harder the message is to understand the easier it is to understand.
Don’t you feel more proud of yourself when you achieve something that was hard for you? Don’t you value it more?
God's message isn't an IQ test - it's supposed to be universal.
And what makes you think those people were simple?
Well they lived 2000 years ago, it's normally regarded modern people know rather more than they did.
Our life is more fancy but we had the advantage of the knowledge accumulated through much more generations.
Well, yes, exactly, we have that advantage - 2000 years of it.
You don’t seem to be interested in the Bible, and that’s ok, you don’t have to like it; but if you ever try hard to look for God’s message in it, I’m sure you’ll find it
I understand the bible perfectly. It's a simple book of stories. Having to look further actually means giving a different meaning to the actual words. A believer could find 'god's message' in car repair manual - that's hardly the point.
Now have a think - if you wanted to give a universal message to the world, would you do it this way?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 7:50 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 10:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 50 of 2241 (701573)
06-21-2013 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
06-21-2013 5:08 AM


Re: No Results
The Bible is full of evidence of Jesus' death for us.
You have trouble understanding the word evidence. It has stories but no evidence. In order to be evidence something else must corroborate it. Nothing else corroborates the bible, all other "evidence" is derived from the bible. There is no "evidence" independent of the bible.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 06-21-2013 5:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by 1.61803, posted 06-21-2013 11:03 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 06-21-2013 11:26 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 51 of 2241 (701574)
06-21-2013 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
06-21-2013 9:26 AM


Re: No Results
Hello Theodoric,
Do the writings of Josephus and Tacitus count?
For all I know those accounts may or may not be reliable, but
I always thought there was a general consensus that person
we call Jesus did exist base on non biblical sources.
Regards,

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2013 9:26 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2013 11:48 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 77 by ramoss, posted 06-24-2013 12:34 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 52 of 2241 (701575)
06-21-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
06-21-2013 9:26 AM


Re: No Results
The Bible is full of evidence of Jesus' death for us.
You have trouble understanding the word evidence. It has stories but no evidence. In order to be evidence something else must corroborate it. Nothing else corroborates the bible, all other "evidence" is derived from the bible. There is no "evidence" independent of the bible.
No, it is you who have a problem with the concept of evidence. The Bible is a collection of the writings of independent witnesses, it needs no outside corroboration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2013 9:26 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 53 of 2241 (701576)
06-21-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by 1.61803
06-21-2013 11:03 AM


Re: No Results
They do not corroborate the bible. They are both decades removed from the supposed time of Jesus.
See earlier posts on this.
Message 7
quote:
TACITUS (c.112CE)
Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity, which was against Roman practice (to only allow ancient and accepted cults and religions.)
* (No-one refers to this passage for a millenium, even early Christians who actively sought such passages.)
Thus, even if the Tacitus passage is not a later interpolation,
it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records,
but
merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)...
JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)
The famous Testamonium Flavianum is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the Jew Josephus (who refused to acknowledge anyone "messiah"),
* The T.F. comes in several versions of various ages,
* The T.F. was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed Josephus - Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
* (The other tiny passage in Josephus is probably a later interpolation.)
An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
LIGAUBO - Daftar Situs Judi Slot Online Gacor Deposit Pulsa Jackpot Terbesar
In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
The do not show any evidence independent of the bible.
There are no independent, contemporary sources for the biblical Jesus. Christians claim there are but I am still waiting.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by 1.61803, posted 06-21-2013 11:03 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by 1.61803, posted 06-21-2013 12:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 2241 (701582)
06-21-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
06-20-2013 6:57 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:
It was people who crucified Jesus and if Jesus was resurrected then it was God who resurrected Him.
It was people who captured Long John Silver and it was God who helped him escape.
No, wait. It was Jim Hawkins. That would be more plausible, wouldn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 6:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 06-21-2013 9:30 PM ringo has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 55 of 2241 (701584)
06-21-2013 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Theodoric
06-21-2013 11:48 AM


Re: No Results
Well given that the first gospel written was possibly 70 years out from Jesus death. It is not surprising that two of the most relished non biblical source is not without problems. Of course this is not a problem for the faithful, but those who would like some contemporary evidence, such as I, it simply is not available. I would not go as far as to say it will never be found though. Something possibly could yet be discovered.
Thanks for your informative reply.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2013 11:48 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 56 of 2241 (701586)
06-21-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Ossat
06-21-2013 3:51 AM


Can you quote that one from the Bible?
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
but if you ever try hard to look for God’s message in it
Messgaes such as this?
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is God's message? That disagrees with most decent people's morality.
Edited by Larni, : Oh, you know?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 3:51 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 11:04 AM Larni has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 57 of 2241 (701600)
06-21-2013 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
06-21-2013 12:32 PM


Re: No Results
ringo writes:
It was people who captured Long John Silver and it was God who helped him escape.
No, wait. It was Jim Hawkins. That would be more plausible, wouldn't it?
As I understood the story it was that God inspired Jim Hawkins to make it all possible. That is the most plausible of all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-21-2013 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 58 of 2241 (701614)
06-22-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
06-21-2013 8:41 AM


Re: No Results
Well I'd start with the entire teaching profession, then work outwards.
It's obviously absurd to say that the harder the message is to understand the easier it is to understand.
You seem to give to "best" and "easy" the same meaning
God's message isn't an IQ test - it's supposed to be universal.
It's universal as is available for anybody who wants to get it. It is not about IQ, it is about give your best to learn from God
Well they lived 2000 years ago, it's normally regarded modern people know rather more than they did
But that doesn't make them less smart. They could've had less knowledge in, say, technology than us, but they could've been more skilled than us at the moment of using their own knowledge. And like I said they could've seen things we didn't
I understand the bible perfectly. It's a simple book of stories. Having to look further actually means giving a different meaning to the actual words. A believer could find 'god's message' in car repair manual - that's hardly the point.
It seems to me that if you read a car repair manual with the same interest that you put in reading the Bible, all you will learn from the whole manual is how to check the engine oil level
Now have a think - if you wanted to give a universal message to the world, would you do it this way?
Again, it is not about how would I or you give a universal message, but how God has done it. If you wanted to understand God's message you'd need to accommodate to His way of talking, not the other way around. You look at it from your own logic and biases, you would need and easy message in order to believe, one that you wouldn't need to work hard to get it, and that I think, is not gonna happen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 8:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2013 11:45 AM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 59 of 2241 (701615)
06-22-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Larni
06-21-2013 1:01 PM


Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
And where exactly does it says that "damned" means burn in hell forever? That's what I was asking
Messgaes such as this?
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is God's message? That disagrees with most decent people's morality.
That's not "God's message". God's message is in the whole Bible, is much more than that. There are many tough passages like that one, which I don't like either, but are there for a reason which I hope to understand one day. But from the little things I can get from the Bible is more than enough for me to realize that God loves us and wants us to be happy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Larni, posted 06-21-2013 1:01 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Larni, posted 06-22-2013 12:29 PM Ossat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 60 of 2241 (701620)
06-22-2013 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Ossat
06-22-2013 10:48 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:
You seem to give to "best" and "easy" the same meaning
Since when is something that is hard to learn the best? The harder something is the fewer people will understand it. The message is supposed to be universally understood.
It is not about IQ, it is about give your best to learn from GodBut that doesn't make them less smart. They could've had less knowledge in, say, technology than us, but they could've been more skilled than us at the moment of using their own knowledge. And like I said they could've seen things we didn't
They could've been 500 feet tall, but I'm betting they weren't. Come on, they were iron age, poor, superstitious and illiterate.
Again, it is not about how would I or you give a universal message, but how God has done it. If you wanted to understand God's message you'd need to accommodate to His way of talking, not the other way around. You look at it from your own logic and biases, you would need and easy message in order to believe, one that you wouldn't need to work hard to get it, and that I think, is not gonna happen
Why are all arguments put by believers back to front? I'm saying that if this god needed to give mankind the most important message it's possible to get and give it to everyone, he needed to do it in a much better way than he actually did. That isn't a 'knowing the mind of god' problem, it's a knowing the 'mind of man' problem. Any idiot could have done a better job.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 10:48 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 12:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
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