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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19262
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 76 of 2241 (701672)
06-23-2013 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
06-21-2013 9:30 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:

As I understood the story it was that God inspired Jim Hawkins to make it all possible. That is the most plausible of all.


Then who inspired Long John Silver?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 06-21-2013 9:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3209
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 77 of 2241 (701686)
06-24-2013 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by 1.61803
06-21-2013 11:03 AM


Re: No Results
The references in Josephus are so corrupted that it can not be used as evidence for anything.

Tactitus would be evidence that Christians existed.


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 Message 51 by 1.61803, posted 06-21-2013 11:03 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 78 of 2241 (701690)
06-24-2013 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Larni
06-23-2013 7:33 AM


How can one consciously reject something that has not been established by the person in question.

No, you can't. That's what I mean, if you reject God without knowing Him, I don't think He'll kill you for that

Of course not. I can only consciously reject what I have previously accepted. The bible does state that God is in the hearts of all men regardless of whether we have heard of him but how do I know that you are not ignoring that part of the bible because it is as 'difficult' as Lev 20:13?

So you see, going by the bible I have no leg to stand on and will go to Hell for ever for my rejection of him: unless (in your version of Christiainty) that bit can be ignored like the killing gays bit.

Why do you keep on saying that I'm ignoring the text in Leviticus? What am I supposed to do about that text? going by the Bible you do stand, but you need to study it. Besides, I don't know where the idea of an eternity in Hell comes from. The texts you quoted before don't say anything about it. It seems to me more that those people who took an INFORMED decision and rejected God will die forever, just cease to exist


This message is a reply to:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 79 of 2241 (701691)
06-24-2013 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Larni
06-23-2013 7:39 AM


Correct: so the we may know that God wants gays dead

He doesn't want anybody dead. But He has an order, and breaking it has consequences. Death entered the world because of our disobedience to his order, so all this death our world experiences is our fault, not His

But where do you get these ideas that God is like this from? If it is from the Bible you must also include 'hates gays', 'condones incest' and 'kills children'.

If not, why not.

I get these ideas from the Bible and from my life experience. And no, I wouldn't include the ones you say, God doesn't hate gays nor anybody else, He loves us all. You are keen on pointing to those examples like the one of the gays but you don't see that God himself died for all of us in the cross..

condones incest? are you talking about Adam and Eve, or all people before the exodus, for that matter? The creation in the beginning was perfect. After Adam and Eve the decaying started and has increased to this day. Until certain point in history, children from brother and sister or close relatives wouldn't experience the diseases they do now
kills children? quote that one for me, please

Edited by Ossat, : Misunderstood part of the post


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Larni, posted 06-23-2013 7:39 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 80 of 2241 (701692)
06-24-2013 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
06-23-2013 11:18 AM


The pertinence of your hypothetical is also obscure. People who "know" that Christianity is true don't seem to overlap with the group of people who reject it.

Well, you'll excuse me, but I still can't see what's your point, could you please elaborate more?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 81 of 2241 (701697)
06-24-2013 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Ossat
06-24-2013 6:33 AM


God wants gays and disobedient children dead (you will remember the admonishion to put gays to the sword from Lev 20:13)

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

God demans children to be killed again.

2nd Chronicles 15:13 "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

When I mentioned incest I meant Lot (Gen 19)

You follow and by extension agree with Jesus' stance on gay slaying. God does not want you to change the Bible's message to fit your morality.

2nd Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

You say I should understand the Bible: I understand what it says and I have read it (being an atheist I find I often know a lot more than many Christians).


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Ossat, posted 06-24-2013 6:33 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:32 AM Larni has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20334
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 82 of 2241 (701701)
06-24-2013 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Ossat
06-22-2013 10:29 PM


Ossat in reply to Larni writes:

If you read the Bible you can find out God’s plan of salvation for yourself, and understand that Jesus loves you and died for you. But you seem to be busy looking for reasons to hate it.

I don't think anyone here hates the Bible or is trying to find reasons to hate it. Our arguments are directed at the various claims made for the Bible, such as that it is the word of God or that it is inerrant or that contains many accurate prophecies, and not at the Bible itself. It would make no more sense to hate the Bible than any work of historical fiction.

Your posts here make clear that you believe the Bible is the word of God, but what evidence do you have? We do have a little evidence for some authorship, since most of the Pauline epistles are believed to have been written by Paul, but Paul isn't God. I'm not aware of any evidence that God wrote any of the books of the Bible.

Let's just grant for the sake of discussion that God exists. What evidence do you have that God wrote anything in the Bible?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 10:29 PM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(2)
Message 83 of 2241 (701729)
06-25-2013 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
06-24-2013 11:14 AM


What baffles me is how people seem to think that God is only loving when the Bible clearly shows his character to be very different.

A little off topic, I suppose.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 06-24-2013 11:14 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 5:00 AM Larni has responded

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 84 of 2241 (701778)
06-26-2013 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Larni
06-24-2013 8:20 AM


You say I should understand the Bible: I understand what it says and I have read it (being an atheist I find I often know a lot more than many Christians).

I'm sorry but I don't really think you know that much about the Bible. You may be able to quote every single passage but if you cannot find anything good your knowledge is vain. You can quote many texts where God appears as a cruel being, let's say He is. Let's say He has wanted all those people dead, but He also died Himself for the whole world. Even if you don't believe, if you think God is just a fictional character, don't you think He has much more good than evil when sacrificing Himself to save everybody? Suppose, again within the context of a Bible as a fictional story, that all that people who died under God's law were saved from a much worse fate if they lived a little bit more. They died, but at the end God died Himself to save them


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 85 of 2241 (701779)
06-26-2013 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
06-24-2013 11:14 AM


Your posts here make clear that you believe the Bible is the word of God, but what evidence do you have? We do have a little evidence for some authorship, since most of the Pauline epistles are believed to have been written by Paul, but Paul isn't God. I'm not aware of any evidence that God wrote any of the books of the Bible.

Let's just grant for the sake of discussion that God exists. What evidence do you have that God wrote anything in the Bible?

My belief in the Bible as being the word of God is mainly a matter of faith, so my claim is not something that I can support at this moment with the kind of evidence you would require to acknowledge it

However I do know there's plenty of evidence around. All universe, living and not living things testify of the existence of God, things didn't just happened the way evolutionists think. There's intelligent design. The geological record is more related to the universal flood described in Genesis than the idea of the old earth. Prophecies in Daniel and Revelation seem to be taking place today....

I know you don't believe in anything of this and think that mainstream scientist have everything figured out. But this is my faith and I'm sure I'm doing well. I don't have much knowledge about this things that I present as evidence, but I now there are creationist scientists (even if you wouldn't call them scientists) working in understanding our universe from a biblical perspective

Now while the Bible may have not been physically written by God, it was revealed, which give it the same value. The texts there were revealed by God to Moses, Paul and the prophets. And not, I don't have evidence of that either, but I do choose to believe it


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 1509 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 86 of 2241 (701780)
06-26-2013 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Larni
06-25-2013 4:46 AM


What baffles me is how people seem to think that God is only loving when the Bible clearly shows his character to be very different.

It baffles me how you seem to think that God is only an evil monster when the Bible clearly shows His character to be very different


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Larni, posted 06-25-2013 4:46 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 87 of 2241 (701781)
06-26-2013 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Ossat
06-26-2013 4:32 AM


GDR writes:

He also died Himself for the whole world.

This is the most bonkers tale of the entire bible.

1. God didn't die
2. His 'son' (whatever that is supposed to mean) was allegedly killed, but he then came back to life.

So, in fact, God made no sacrifice.

That is, of course, quite apart from the fact that sending your son to be killed to save mankind from our sins - the very ones he allowed us to commit by creating evil in the first place - is patently stupid.

As ideas go, it's one of the worst. Just simply childish nonsense.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:32 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(2)
Message 88 of 2241 (701782)
06-26-2013 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Ossat
06-26-2013 4:32 AM


You do know that he sacrificed himself to save us from himself, don't you?

If he had have just forgave Adam and Eve for doing what he knew they would he would not have had to torture himself to death to save us from his decree that we are sinners.

Simple.

but I now there are creationist scientists (even if you wouldn't call them scientists) working in understanding our universe from a biblical perspective

This is not actually the case. What 'creation scientists' do is try to bebunk science. If science is wrong the Bible must be right, eh?

Simple

The texts there were revealed by God to Moses, Paul and the prophets. And not, I don't have evidence of that either, but I do choose to believe it

So you agree he revealed that he wants those no good gays put to death and you still think he's a loving guy?

Complicated.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:32 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17009
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 89 of 2241 (701785)
06-26-2013 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Ossat
06-26-2013 4:56 AM


quote:

However I do know there's plenty of evidence around. All universe, living and not living things testify of the existence of God,

Or so the Bible says. But I don't think that the Bible saying something that isn't true should be a reason to consider it the Word of God.

quote:

things didn't just happened the way evolutionists think. There's intelligent design. The geological record is more related to the universal flood described in Genesis than the idea of the old earth

Propaganda isn't evidence.

quote:

Prophecies in Daniel and Revelation seem to be taking place today....

I 'd love to know how it could be the case that "prophecies" about the 2nd Century BC (Daniel) could be coming true today... But really, it isn't true that there's any good evidence of fulfilled Biblcal prophecies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:56 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 90 of 2241 (701786)
06-26-2013 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Ossat
06-26-2013 4:56 AM


Speaking as a Christian
Ossat writes:

The geological record is more related to the universal flood described in Genesis than the idea of the old earth.

Sorry but that is simply a false assertion. There has never been anything like the Biblical floods stories found in Genesis during the period when modern man existed. The Biblical flood never happened and has been totally refuted not just by geology but also genetics, physics, chemistry, all areas of science.

Ossat writes:

Prophecies in Daniel and Revelation seem to be taking place today....

Again, speaking as one Christian to another, that is simply false. If you wish pick a prophecy and we will be happy to discuss it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:56 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
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